Transcript
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Welcome to Round Trip Death and Merry Christmas. Today we're going to hear from a woman named Cat.
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Because of her near-death experience, she went from atheist to Christian. It's a fascinating story.
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But before we do, I'd like to ask a small favor. If you appreciate this show and its message,
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please click over to roundtripdeath.com. In the upper right corner of the homepage,
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you'll see a little donate button. If you'd like to help us keep the lights on for another season,
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click there and be generous. Thank you in advance and now let's hear from Cat.
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One of the things that I get asked all the time is, don't all the near-death experiences start
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sounding the same? Aren't they all just people go through a tunnel, head to the light, and everything
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is bliss? And my answer to that is absolutely not. Every single one is completely different,
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including the one that we're going to hear from Cat Dunkel today. Good morning, Cat.
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Good morning. Good morning.
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And before we start, I love the title of your book. It's called, Is It Safe to Die?
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Right, right. Kind of odd, isn't it?
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No, I think it's great. It makes me interested. And we'll talk about that as we go, but give us a
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little bit of information about you. Where are you from? Tell us about Cat.
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Well, Eric, I'm from all over the country. My father worked for the Department of Agriculture
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and Government, so he was transferred every two years. And as a kid, that's kind of hard
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because you're always going to a different school. The curriculum was always different,
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so I kind of grew up very insecure. I don't know if you, maybe the audience, somebody has ever had
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to go into a new school where all the kids are staring at you and you're kind of an oddity. And
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you know, kids don't like that. I used to drive my son to school and they'd say, mom, don't do
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anything with your hair. It was like, you know, you're very self-conscious. And so growing up,
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we moved all over the country every two years. So that just, you know, it was very, very difficult
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childhood. Also, my father drank an awful lot. I was an alcoholic. My mother was abused by him,
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and so were my brothers and my sister and I. And so as a child, that was all normal to me. But as I
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got older, I understood we were pretty dysfunctional. Yeah, I'm sorry to hear that. That's rough.
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Did you, on the lighter side, did you have any favorite places that you lived?
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No, I have one I just liked very much. That was in Kansas where, you know, I actually liked the
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state of Washington because I love being outside. Yeah, even in the rain, I loved it. And it's a,
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you know, pretty moderate climate actually. So even in the rain, it wouldn't be that cold.
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But yeah, I think Washington with the water, the lakes and the mountains and the trees and
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to be outside was always wonderful. Then we moved from that to Kansas. And in the summertime and
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got off the airplane, it was 110, I think, and the humidity was the same. It was horrible. You know,
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I thought, well, maybe there's a heat from the airplane or something, but it just got worse.
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And there were chiggers in the grass. You couldn't walk in the grass. I don't know, maybe the audience
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doesn't know what a chigger is, but it's a little bug that's in the grass. And it was awful. They
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didn't have any lakes and water that I was used to. So I didn't like that.
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Because of the contrast. And just so you know, we have a lot of listeners in Kansas.
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We have a couple of really big pockets of listeners in Kansas. So shout out to our Kansas
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listeners and not everybody hates it there, I'm sure.
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Well, we're big Kansas City Chief fans, I'll tell you that. So
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I love my home. He's a great guy. And, you know, and I have a very dear friend that's from Kansas
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and absolutely loves it. So my experience was just so different from what I was used to, I think.
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So it wasn't good.
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And now you're more of a snowbird living in Washington, but winter's in the desert.
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That's right. Yes. The Southern California desert is beautiful.
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Okay.
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We're fortunate to be able to do that for sure.
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Well, before we talk all about your near death experience,
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tease it a little bit with how did you come up with this title for your book?
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Well, I wrote a book a long time ago, the same, actually, this is a rewrite with a professional
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editor this time and, and being able to really tell some things that I was fearful of telling
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in the first book, but I just it just happened. I was something I put in my first book. And,
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and sometimes I feel for some people that isn't real safe to die. So
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because of my experience, so I didn't really know how I came up with it.
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So there isn't a simple answer to the question then is it safe to die?
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Right.
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Oh, okay. Making me a little bit nervous. Well, let's, let's get into it. Let's go back in time.
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You grew up in this dysfunctional family, marital problems, etc. What led up to your near death?
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Being from that family, I wanted out desperately and jumped into a very bad marriage to an
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alcoholic, of course, that seems to happen, I think, with a lot of people that they tend
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to follow what they're brought up with. And had two children by the time I was 21 and ended up
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with the nervous breakdown and horrible circumstances. And during that time, I had lost
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all faith in God. I during my teen years and in this family, I tried desperately to believe in God,
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but I just couldn't I'd not there. Nobody could really give me any answers that made sense to me.
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It was just just have faith. Well, how do you have? How do you just have faith? I had no idea.
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And it was show me how how do I get faithful? And so I went to every church I could possibly
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imagine anybody I was I was just right for some cult to pick me up because thankfully that didn't
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happen. But it was just a bad time. I just did not believe in God. I'd say I was an agnostic
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because I wanted very much to believe in God, but just didn't. So where I was in these circumstances
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in Kansas City, I one time my husband was passed out in the bedroom, my two sons were asleep,
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little babies. And I walked out the living room looked up at the sky, it was so beautiful. And I
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I remember saying just screaming out, God, if you're really there, you just give me one year
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to know what it's like to really feel loved. Because I had never felt that feeling of being
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loved or loving someone else. And just one year and then just devastate me take everything away,
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kill me. I don't care. I just want one year out of life. And I walked away because I do that
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wouldn't happen. But it wasn't long after that I packed my sons up into an old beat up car. We
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left Kansas City and moved to Seattle where I had some family but that didn't turn out well. And I
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ended up in government housing with no food, no money, no furniture. The boys and I would
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lay the sleeping bags on the floor. There was a gas deal that heated our unit had a little pilot
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light down and we'd pretend that's our campfire. We were camping and we'd run through the house
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because he couldn't break anything or and they loved it. We go to the library and get books and
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played down by the lake and just life was pretty good just being out of the circumstances that I
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had been in first time in my life. I was on my own making my own decisions. So that was all fine.
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And I had got a job and we finally put together a little home there and life was good. But the lady
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I worked for decided one day that she had just met the man that I should marry and I wasn't really
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receptive to that for sure. But I got this phone call from this man named Don and he was so,
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I don't know, kind or something I was just drawn to. And 28 days after that phone call we were
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married by a justice of the peace, William R. Beamer in Reno, Nevada. And he was incredible,
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the most handsome man that I'd ever known in my life and had a good job. He had his own car,
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his own house that he was buying. It was just a great, he loved my sons. What more could you ask
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for in life? And for the first year that we were married, it was incredible. I would open up the
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closet and there'd be china and crystal and things that I never even dreamt of before. I loved my
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life. It was just incredible. So you got that year that you wanted of feeling loved, right?
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Yes. How old were you at that time? 2023. Okay, still very young, very young. You know,
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I married when I was 17 and had my first child at 18 and the next one at 19, almost 20. And yeah,
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so that all happened in a very short time. Yeah. Anyway, exactly 28 days we were married
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in February 9th, on February 9th. So it was exactly one year we went out to dinner and celebrated
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our wonderful anniversary. And Don had bought a tavern a few, about six months prior to that
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with a friend of his, he wanted to have his own business. He was in real estate before,
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he had a solid job. And I was very leery of this because of the alcohol issues in my family. And,
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but I knew it was his dream and I couldn't stop that. But I didn't like it. And anyway,
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he said, well, let's just stop by and see how the business is going. And I was upset about that,
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but I didn't say anything. And so we stopped by the tavern and walked in and everybody was
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gathering around him, congratulating him on his business. And there was a barmaid there that
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certainly was obvious. She was just flirting with Don, you know, and I was looking over there and
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he'd be fixing her necklace. And then she was flicking her hair at him and just, you know,
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so I kept getting angrier and angrier and angrier and angrier and pretty soon I just got up and
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ran out the door and just started running. Cause that's what I always did when I got
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backed into a corner was just run. And, and anyway, we had our first very, very bad argument
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and it had been exactly one year after that, my father dropped dead of a heart attack.
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The business that we had was going bankrupt and my son, Mark, my middle son, Mark was hit by a car
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and killed. It was a terrible, terrible thing and, and just absolutely broke me into.
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So I became very unable to talk to people or smile or do anything because I felt so horribly guilty
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and moms aren't supposed to let their children die. And, and I, I just couldn't recover at all
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from that. And Don, when I told me you have to get out of the house, we have to move on.
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And I was screaming at him, you know, don't tell me to move on. I'll never move on. And I,
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I couldn't smile. I couldn't do anything as I had horrible guilt that I had and, and losing Mark,
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I just would never get over. And so he insisted that we go out. And so we were kind of arguing
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with each other and got out the door and, and arguing a little harder and got into the car.
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By then I'm pretty much yelling at him. He started driving down the street and I'm,
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you know, he says, you just got to move on. And I just came across the seats with my hands,
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just smashing into his face and angry, just taking all my pain and frustration out on him. And,
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and he took his arm and just swung at me wildly. He was trying to drive the car and pulling it
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over to the side of the road, swung his arm over and hit me really hard in the side and the back.
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And I fell over to my side of the car and I was so stunned. And I just told him, take me home,
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take me home. And he did. And I did what I always did. I grabbed the car keys and stuck out the
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door and took off in the car because I was so frustrated and angry. And I knew that our marriage
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would never work out. I was never good enough for him and all these horrible things going through
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my head. And we went, I was driving down the road. I felt this intense pain inside of me. I thought,
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well, is my heart breaking or is there something wrong with me or what? And I pulled over and got
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out of the car. It was pouring down rain and cars are going by and honking and splashing me. And,
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and I was just doubled over in pain. And I thought, I've got to get home. I've got to get home. And
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I got in behind the wheel of the car and I don't even know how I got home. But by the time I did,
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my clothes were all undone. I was soaking wet in the rain and I was barely crawling up the driveway
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to the door. And Don was standing there again, of course, so furious with me. And I told him,
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I said, I tried to get by him. I said, I need to call an ambulance or something really wrong with
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me. And so he softened at that point and said, you know, well, if you're that bad, I'll drive
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you to the hospital, which he did. And they did not, we're talking back in the late sixties and
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they didn't have MRIs and CAT scans and the equipment to diagnose anything at that point.
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So when we got there, they noticed a bruise on my back and asked me how I got the bruise. And
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I didn't want to tell them because I didn't want them to think Don was a wife beater. You know,
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I had, I'd come at him and he was just defending himself from an out of control person. And
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but so I told them, I didn't know, but they said, well, you seem to have some kind of massive
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internal bleeding because your blood pressure is dropping and this is a blood test for showing
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something and we have to take you into surgery. We have to find out why. And so that happened so
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fast. I was like, well, who are you? And, you know, I don't know anything about you. I was fearful.
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But I didn't have much time and Don leaned over the gurney and kissed me goodbye and told me that
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he loved me. And so into surgery we went and I remember them putting the mask over my face
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and thinking I should, I should be going under and I could see the doctors around me. I could see
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everything. Then all of a sudden it just got black, but I was still awake and I just, it was like
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everything had just blacked out and I couldn't breathe. And I remember the horrible panic as my,
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my arms were, were secured because of the surgery and I couldn't grab the mask off, but it was like
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being drowned. I was underwater and desperately trying to breathe and, and could not. And so when
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I did kind of try to breathe in, nothing would happen. This is a horrible panic. I just can't
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tell you how horrible that was. And then I just kind of came out of that darkness into a space,
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like a tunnel somewhat. And I, I, I could, I didn't have to breathe anymore. The panic was still there,
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but I, I did, I realized I don't have to breathe. I'm okay. I don't need to breathe.
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And then I started moving in this tunnel and, and it was odd. My feeling was that what's happening,
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what's happening. And I saw down below me that Don and my other two sons were, were
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around a lamp pole and they were crying because I was dead. And I was trying to tell them, no,
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I'm not dead. I'm just fine. I'm okay. And then this feeling came, they're going to be just fine.
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And I moved on and I saw four people off to the left and they were dressed in street clothes,
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normal people weren't angels or anything, but they had these very concerned looks on their faces.
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So I'm thinking after, you know, looking into near death experiences, possibly could have been
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distant relatives or somebody that knew me, but I didn't recognize them. And I passed by them.
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And all I can remember is that why are they still concerned? Why are they looking at me like that?
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And, and then as I moved on through this tunnel, it wasn't definitely like a tunnel. I, I felt this
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or this loud, horrible noise, like a freight train just right through my, my head. And then this
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pulling and burning of a rope through the middle of me, like a hundred million miles an hour.
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And the thought came to me, there is no God. And all of a sudden that all that happened, the noise
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and the pulling through the middle and it stopped. And I knew, I knew that God existed. I knew that
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as much as I know that my hand is in front of my face right now, or that I'm looking at you, nobody
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would be able to come in this room and say, that hand isn't there or that man isn't there that
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you're talking with. Nobody could convince me of that. I know I'm seeing that. So that's how much
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I knew that I knew that I knew God does exist. And it was this incredible feeling of, of just
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this overwhelming peace and happiness and euphoria or anything word that you could possibly use
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right now. So, I mean, it was very strange, very strange.
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Yeah. So just so I understand. So you went from this scary train noise and rope around you.
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Was there some kind of a transition? And then all of a sudden you knew about God, how fill in some
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detail there. Yeah, it just, it happened with the loud noise and the pulling through the middle of
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me. And I'm thinking it was almost as if God was pulling out of me all of the hatred and the
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anger and all of the things that were, were driving me. It's almost like it was being
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cleansed of something. And then it just stopped. And then I felt this overwhelming
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peace, this overwhelming euphoria, just the most incredible feeling I've ever had.
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And I couldn't explain it because there aren't words to explain that. I mean, you could,
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the Bible talks about the peace of passes, all understanding. Well, it definitely was that I,
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I didn't understand it. I couldn't explain it, but it was incredible. And then that same noise came
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and the same pulling through the middle of me and thought came to me, there is no heaven.
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And this stopped again. And I saw this brilliance, just like a sunburst brilliance. And I was moving
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towards it. And I knew that I was going to heaven and the excitement, you know, it was like I could
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leave my husband who I adored by children who I would die for in a second, and I was like,
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I would leave them to go and stay in this place to be where I'm at right now and to go into heaven.
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I would leave them like that. That was how strong this was. And then it just, that just stopped.
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And the floor fell out from beneath me and I fell into what I know was hell. I felt the total
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separation from anything or anyone, and especially God. And I was screaming. I felt the pain of
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burning, but no flames, because that would have given light. This was the blackest black of
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anything. It was total nothingness. I feel like it's the black hole in space, maybe, I don't know.
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But I was falling into this and I was feeling this pain and I was hearing the screams of others.
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I knew that I knew that I knew that no one could save me from this place, that I was going to fall
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and burn. And I knew that I had sent myself there. I didn't blame God. You know, why did you let this
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happen to me or anything? I knew that I had caused this. I had blasphemed God. I had, when Mark died
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and people tried to tell me about Jesus or God, I would scream at them, I'll tell you about your Jesus.
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Your Jesus kills little children. And I would be so angry. And so, you know, I knew, and I used to
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call God Ralph. I used to joke about it. And I was just, all these horrible things that I turned
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against God and wanted no part of anything to do with God. So, I was falling into this horror,
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knowing it would be for eternity, that nobody even knew I existed. But I didn't know I existed.
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Nobody knew I existed. And even if they did, how could they save me? How could they throw a rope
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into here? There's no way I'm never going to be saved. I'm never going to hit bottom. I can't
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commit suicide even. I can't make it stop. I'm going to fall and burn in this eternity, forever
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and ever and ever. And I knew that. And then all of a sudden I was screaming, God, please forgive
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me. I know that you're real. I know you exist. Please forgive me. And take me from this place.
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But I knew it was not going to happen. I knew that. But then it just stopped. And I started
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going backwards, backwards, backwards through the tunnel again. And I came to a point where I knew
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I was going to enter back into life. And I was clinging to this feeling of being with God and
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wanting that so desperately. But knowing I was going to go back and I heard an audible voice say,
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bring people to me. And then I came back through this, some kind of pulling through the opening.
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And I was in the operating room just screaming, and God is real, God is real, and into recovery.
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And so that was the experience I had. And it changed my life. I went into that surgery,
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a confirmed atheist, and I came out a Bible believing, thumping on fire for God person,
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and have been for over 50 years. And I have never stopped one day of my life doing what I can do
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to bring people to the Lord, because that was what he asked me to do. And that's been my one thing.
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I think it's so fascinating that you kept being hit with opposites, right, with these horrible
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things, and then wonderful things, and then back to horrible things. Can you talk about that
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contrast a little bit? Well, it was wonderful things. And then, then the horrible thing,
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and then being taken back away from that. I mean, can you even imagine how I felt coming
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out of that place? And after knowing that I would be there for eternity, I just I tell you, you know,
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so it's driven me that is driven me. We're like I say over these 50 years, and anybody who knows
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me, I mean, I'm a normal person. You know, I say bad words when I miss a golf shot, just like anybody
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else does, you know, and, and, you know, I, I'm not a big drinker, but I have a glass of wine once in
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a while, you know, I'm normal person. And, but my life 100% any friend of mine, I've got lots of
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friends, I'm a very friendly person, knows what I stand for, and who I am. And that's a complete
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believer. And I'm the one they usually call and something goes wrong, or somebody dies or whatever,
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because that's the one hope they can cling to, is that their loved one is, is there somewhere.
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And I believe in my heart, I don't think God sends anybody to hell. First of all, I think the blame
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should go to where it belongs. And that's either to us or evil. I believe that we do this to
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ourselves. That's the feeling I had. But I believe that God gives everybody this opportunity during
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the dying process to come to him. I don't believe I was special in any way or had I know I wasn't,
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but I believe that we all have this opportunity. There is true evil in this world. I think we see
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it every day. But we think to ourselves, even the worst person, what I want Charles Manson to go to
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hell, not really, you know, not really, does any human being deserve that, that horror, but maybe
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so. I don't know. I'm not going to judge anybody. But so I do believe that during the dying process,
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because some people have horrible lives like I did, that turn them against God, or horrible
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circumstances like losing a child or a husband or a wife or whatever. And, and they're angry,
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they're angry because they think God could have stopped this, but he can't. He would be going
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against everything that he stands for and the free will that he's given mankind. And I think that
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he's given mankind and I don't want to preach to you, but you know, I just want people to know
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that there is hope. I mean, you may have had a loved one that was not a believer,
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maybe blasphemed God as well, but during the dying process, change their minds real quick. So
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that's my, my belief. That seems like the forgiveness came really quickly and really
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easily. Does that seem fair? Yeah. So, I mean, I was there long enough to make a true believer
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out of me, but, uh, um, yes, yes, it did come quickly. And the whole experience, I guess,
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maybe it was pretty quick. I don't know. I don't know time-wise.
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Let me ask you this since you have children and oh boy, can I ask you to put yourself in the shoes
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of God for a second? Does that sound too blasphemous or whatever? No, no, no, no, no.
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I mean, you have children, if they had done something horrible to you, how quickly would
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you forgive them if they wanted to come back and make their peace with you, with their mother?
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Yeah, no, yeah. I mean, there's, there is no time limit there. They know they could never do anything
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bad enough that that would turn me away from them. And is that what you learned about God doing the
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same thing? Well, yes and no, but if, if, if, if knowing that forgiving my children would harm them,
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if knowing that forgiving my children would just, would dispute who I was as God, then I couldn't,
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I couldn't, there's, there's only a limit to how, what, what, a guy can't go against his word. He
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can't go against what he is. And, and I know it breaks his heart. I know that he does everything
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in, in creation to stop it. How would you give your son to die on a cross, a horrible death that
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Jesus Christ did to save mankind? You know, so I, I think God has done all he can do and I would do
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all I could for my children for sure. But if I knew it was going to harm them or war against the
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creation, I, I, I couldn't do that. I couldn't do that. No one could. So how else did this experience
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change you? How, how did it change me? Yeah. I mean, you've given us kind of an idea. What,
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what else did it, did it do to help you be different, better or anything else? I met peace.
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All right. Great peace. Even the world is a messed up place and it's not easy. It's not easy. Life is
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never easy, but I, it changed me in a lot of ways. One way was that I went to sleep one night. I had
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a dream about starting a business. I did, I had a high school education. I wanted to go to college,
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but my father said I wasn't college material and wouldn't help me. And, and I didn't go to college.
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So I, I, it, I was bounced from one school to another. So my knowledge and my intellect has
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been whatever I could absorb from books or self-taught. I wasn't that brilliant person,
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but I went to bed, had this dream and I started a business back in the sixties
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of customer satisfaction. I was in an automotive industry in my job and I saw customers coming
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into the dealership that were good people. And I saw they were being mistreated or lied to or
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cheated. And I didn't like that. So I just started calling them up one day and saying,
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how was your experience at XYZ Chevrolet? And did I get an earful? And we're talking about the
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sixties and car dealerships were a bad business at that time. They were, you know, out to get
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what they could get any way they could get it. And, but the owners were not necessarily like that.
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So I took this information to the owner of the car dealership. I said, you know, here's what your
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customers think about you. And he just went crazy. He made me a manager and did all this stuff,
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you know? And so I took what was happening there and I thought this is good for every car dealership.
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And this was all came to me in a dream, showed me how to do this, start this business. So I went out
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and started knocking on doors. I can make some phone calls for you and tell you what your
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customers think of you. And here's what customers from XYZ Chevrolet thought about them. And they
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just went crazy. They couldn't sign up fast enough. And this business grew so fast and we became very
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successful. All the money problems we had in the past all went away. And in the business,
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and the business is still thriving today under my son. I walked away from it one day and took up
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golf, but he has done a great job with it and became very wealthy himself through it. So God
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blessed us, I mean, in incredible ways. And so, yes, I mean, I had that ability to do what I did
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then. I know that came from God. Like I say, I wasn't a well-educated person, but I was able
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to talk to very well-educated people on their level and make a success of myself. So,
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and I had feelings for people that I never had before. I couldn't talk to somebody that's
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in horrible pain and not shut, I don't get scared or I want to do what I can to say the word that
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maybe gives them some hope or maybe gives them some peace. And so that desire inside of me to
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do that, that's why I do these podcasts or why I wrote my book and was a hundred percent, no,
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I don't know if you've ever written a book, but no author makes money. Trust me, it's expensive to
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try to find editors and do all the things you have to do to make a book good. And if you're famous,
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maybe you might make a dollar or two, but it's not something you do. And people always think that,
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oh, you just want to sell books. Well, I don't, I don't care if you read it or not, but it will
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help you. So the ability has come about by the grace of God. So I'd have changed a lot.
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Yeah. Well, I appreciate that very much for, for those people out there that are listening that
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haven't decided yet. Oh, is there really an afterlife? Should I be afraid of death? What
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do you have to say to them? Well, is it safe to die? Yeah. You haven't really answered that yet.
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You know, I, I, um, I don't know. I would say this, what have you got to lose? You know, I,
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I don't know. There's probably a lot of people that like me tried to believe in God and just
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couldn't, couldn't find any answers that really made sense to them. And I understand that, but
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I'm not talking church. I'm talking relationship with God. If you could just say to God, I want
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to know you. I want to give my life to you. I want you to take over. I'm not doing such a good job
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here, or I'm frustrated, or I don't understand. Please help me God to, to know you and lay your
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life down and give it to him in a sincere way and just see what happens. I mean, what have you got
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to lose? You know, and, uh, I would encourage people to start searching for answers. And I want
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people to be careful because there's a lot of garbage going on out there that people believe
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in that, that will lead you in the wrong direction because you're not God. I mean, some people
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believe that we have that ability ourselves to become gods and there's one God, there's one God
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and God is, is, is spirit like we are. I mean, I felt my spirit leave my body through my near death
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experience. I felt it come back when I was at that point and I heard that voice. They bring people to
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me. I felt this, the actual will to live or call it a spirit, enter back into my body, a physical,
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actual thing. And then I went through waking up in the, in the surgery room. So we are, I read,
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we are human beings. Yes. Flesh and blood, but we also have a spirit who's really who we are.
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That's who we are. This, this, this body's going to turn dude to dust. We know that or many people
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have drowned or they, whatever way they have died in that dying process, there comes a point where
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the spirit, you, you, who you are actually leaves your body. And that's some scientists have called
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it your consciousness, who you are, who you're, it's not your brain activity. They can actually
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prove. Dr. Bruce Grayson studied me for over 20 years. He's a scientist who just devoted his entire
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career to near death experiences and, and has studied thousands and thousands of them,
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but there's an actual consciousness or belief or thing, person that comes out of you. And that's
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you, your spirit. That's what lives on in eternity. Is there any other kind of experience that could
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have helped you believe in God versus what happened to you? Cause not everybody's going to go through
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this and fast. Most people aren't. I hope not. I mean, it was a great thing because I don't know
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why. I don't know why some go through this and others don't. I know, but like I said, I do believe
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everybody goes through this during the dying process. I firmly believe that because God,
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the Bible says that God's no respecter of people, you know, what he doesn't choose one over another.
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So if this experience was something that several of us have had and it leads us to God,
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which in most cases it does, it's, we're not special, you know, why would we be chosen to
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have this happen? So my belief is it does happen to everybody during the dying process.
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I think that does that answer your question? Yes, it does. Thank you. Going back to the,
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your experience itself, you mentioned being in a tunnel. A lot of the time it was just dark,
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the times that it was not dark and that you felt like you were in a heavenly place.
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Do you remember seeing or hearing specifically anything, or was this all just a feeling that came
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to you? Well, there was that loud noise that preceded every, everything, the three things.
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It was that horrendous noise. I liken it to a freight train, you know, standing right next to
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a freight train going by is what it's, what I would say it sounded like. It was that loud.
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And so there was that noise and what that represents, I, I, I think that's the, that's
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the speculation, you know, my feeling, maybe that God was just tearing that hatred and that anger
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and the garbage out of me through that, that I don't know. Something was being, something was
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being torn out of me. Something was being pushed out of me in a way through that pulling through
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the middle of me, through my heart, just pulling that out. Interesting. And you did mention seeing
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four people that you didn't recognize. Yeah. And you've speculated who they are, maybe their
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ancestors or something, but you don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I, I, my son had died.
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I didn't see him, you know, uh, and I'm not sure that I would have wanted to, because I would not
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have wanted to disrupt where he was. I wouldn't, you know, knowing where he is, I wouldn't have
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wanted to disrupt where he was. I wouldn't, you know, knowing where he is, knowing where he is,
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I mean, how could he see me? How could I see him and ever, ever live normally ever again?
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So yeah. Um, so I didn't know these people and, uh, and a lot of other people do see
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other people, you know, loved ones that they've lost, but I know where he is. I know that my life
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here is a flash in the time of eternity. Now you've had a lot of time to think about all of this. So
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I'm going to ask for what may be a little speculation on your part, but some people
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have near death experiences, have a choice on whether they want to come back or not. It sounds
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like you didn't, you just were back in your body. What, first of all, why do you think you didn't
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have a choice and what do you think the choice might've been if you had one? Well, it definitely
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would have stayed. I definitely 100% because like I said earlier, I would have left my, my children,
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my husband to stay there. I knew that, that this was for eternity and that my life going back would
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be just a short time. I, I, my personal self wanted to stay and my choice, I guess would have
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been to stay because I knew that my husband and my other two sons would be okay. I was given that
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reassurance when I, they were the first thing I saw as I went into this experience where they were
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standing down by the lamp post and they were crying and that reassurance they're going to be okay
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came to me and it was so strong. I knew they would be just fine. They would move on through life and
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be just fine. So yes, I would have stayed. Can't remember what the first part of the question was.
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Oh, well, why do you think you didn't have a choice? And I think maybe you've kind of explained that.
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Yeah, I, I don't, I don't know. I, I, uh, I don't know. I say the choice would have been to stay,
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but I don't remember any question or, or that that was even, God wanted me to bring people to him.
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It was just given to me that I was to go back and I was to try to bring people to him, which was like,
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oh my gosh, when I did come to my senses, when I got out of the hospital finally,
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because it was a long rehabilitation, I was very, very ill. Anyway, I thought, how do you bring
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people to God? What am I going to do? You know, I was not, I was not brought up in a Christian home
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or a Buddhist home or whatever faith people have. I was not brought up in, in, in religion or faith
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or anything else. So how am I going to bring people to God? I, you know, so I would tell them
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about my experience and I didn't bring anybody to God. I scared them half to death, you know? So
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it was like, I don't know how to do this. God help me, you know, but that, that morphed into,
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to being able to comfortably let people know who I am first, and then maybe telling them my experience
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or, or doing what I can do. So I learned over time what to do. Have you found that people are more
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accepting and believing when you explain it to them now than many years ago, when it first happened,
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when near death experiences, I'm putting this in quotes, as it's been termed, hadn't even been,
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you know, wasn't even a thing that people talked about, didn't have that name yet.
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Right, right. Yes, I, it was, I remember my grandmother calling me up, you know,
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it was, I told everybody about it. Wasn't something that I hid for sure. And I had changed. I, you
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know, I, when I got well enough, I went to Catholic church, which I'm not a Catholic now,
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but I went there. It was the only thing I had ever known from my mother every single day, you know,
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they had a six o'clock mass. I was there at six o'clock in the morning, whether I was sometimes
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the only person in the church and, and I would pray it. And then I started going to this evangelical
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church where I, because I wanted to learn about God and I didn't learn anything in the Catholic
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church. I mean, it was a structured thing, but, and I could have soft feelings for God, but I didn't
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learn anything. So I started learning about the Bible and about Jesus Christ and all these things.
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I could not get enough. Well, before we wrap up, what's a message of hope you can give people
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that are listening today? How can you make their life better today? That you have a choice in this
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life. I mean, we, none of us get through this easily and we all die, you know, and we all come
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to an end and it's a good thing to, to be prepared for that, to understand it, to do the best you can.
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And you can do that by simply praying, by simply asking God to help you and, and to become that
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believer. And it's the process. I mean, it's not something, sometimes the light bulb just comes on
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for people, but other times it doesn't. And so I would ask you or challenge you to take my words
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here today. Just lay your life down, give it to the Lord and, and just see what happens and try to
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follow that. I mean, you're going to see the light as well as I or anybody else. If you just lay down
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your human objection to God and, and wholly give yourself to him and just see what happens. I
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believe that he'll guide you as he did me. Thank you. I appreciate your words today. Thanks a lot,
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Kat. Well, you're welcome. Thanks for asking me.
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Thank you again for listening and just a gentle reminder about donating to the show at roundtripdeath.com.
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Until then, Merry Christmas and I wish you everything good that you're looking for in this life and the next.
