Transcript
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From the time that they pronounced me deaf was a good 45 minutes.
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They cut my clothes and then they paddled my heart, my heart had stopped.
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And I could see people screaming and crying, but I didn't realize that was actually my
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physical body because I was somewhere else.
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The only thing that I could feel, if you could imagine, absolute love and peace, there wasn't
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anything else to be felt.
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I was greeted by people I'd known in the past.
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I'm back home again.
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Incredibly safe and felt at home.
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Welcome to this bonus episode of Round Trip Death.
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Earlier this week, we released episode number 342 with special guest Susan Walter.
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In that interview, we referenced a prior episode in which we had a discussion about children
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and NDEs with Dr. Melvin Morse.
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This show is an abridged version of that discussion, and I think you'll find it fascinating.
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Today on the show, we have an unusual guest and unusual in the fact that Dr. Morse, who
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we are about to hear from, is not someone who experienced a near-death experience, but
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he's someone that has studied the topic and dealt with a lot of people that have had them.
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And we're going to get a medical perspective on things today.
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So Dr. Melvin Morse, welcome to the show.
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Thank you so much.
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It is such a pleasure, Eric.
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I've been looking forward to this.
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And before we get into your medical background, do you want to tell people what's going on
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with your voice?
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Yeah.
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I just had some surgery on my throat, so I apologize for sounding kind of hoarse.
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But on the other hand, we just want to talk and get this message out there.
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If we wait until the time is right, you never know when that time will be.
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Whereas, I hope people will appreciate what I have to say, even if it comes in a kind
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of a spooky, gravelly voice.
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Well I'm sure they will.
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And that was kind of profound.
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We don't want to wait until the time's right, because you and I have been going back and
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forth trying to make this thing happen for a while.
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So I'm so happy that we finally have you today, and your voice is just fine.
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Anyway, would you mind telling us a little bit about your medical background so people
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understand a little bit about the scientific study that you have?
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Absolutely.
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You know, near-death research is kind of my hobby as a former associate professor of pediatrics
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at the University of Washington for about 20 years.
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I taught medical students in residence at Seattle Children's Hospital for 25 years.
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The studies that I did primarily were in the Department of Neurology, having to do with
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neuro-oncology, anti-cancer drugs, things such as that.
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I was a critical care physician and also in private practice pediatrics for many, many
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years.
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So, you know, I don't really comment this naturally.
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This is something that I sort of stumbled upon, and I feel a responsibility, frankly,
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to share this information.
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Okay, where did you go to med school?
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I went to Johns Hopkins in Baltimore, Maryland, and trained at the University of California
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at San Francisco, and then did more advanced training at Seattle Children's Hospital, University
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of Washington.
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I completed a residency in pediatrics and a fellowship in neuro-oncology, which is,
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you know, brain cancer, basically.
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Okay.
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With that kind of resume, I don't think anybody can dispute that you're a real-life doctor.
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What got you interested in your death experiences in the first place?
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So I worked primarily in critical care medicine for many years, and I worked for an outfit
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called Airlift Northwest, and we basically flew throughout the Northwest to small community
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hospitals, picked up critically ill children, resuscitated them, and brought them back to
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Seattle Children's Hospital.
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Well, my mom always loves to say she's had a near-death experience.
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She loves to say there's no coincidences, but just by coincidence, I just happened to pick
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up a young girl named Crystal Merzlach, and she had nearly drowned in a community swimming
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pool in Boca de la Lido.
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She was under water for 20 minutes, documented.
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And our teen went into resuscitator.
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She was so close to death that I told her parents that they should go in and, you know,
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basically say goodbye to her.
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They had a prayer circle at her bedside, and I said that they needed to prepare themselves
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that she could go at any time.
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Let me just mention to our listeners that Crystal was on our show a couple of weeks
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ago.
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So if they want to hear this story from her side, which I think is fascinating to put
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the two together, go back to episode number 232, and you can now hear both sides of this
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story.
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Okay, doctor, keep going.
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So, well, you know, against all odds, we were in fact able to resuscitate her.
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Got her heart beat back, got her breathing, and she was transferred down to Primary Children's
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Hospital in Utah and then made a complete recovery three days later.
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And it's interesting, the nurses at her bedside said that the first thing that she said when
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she woke up was, where is Andy and Mark, who are apparently her playmates in heaven?
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Wow.
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So how did you hear about this, that she had gotten better and had this experience?
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Well, I just happened to be working at a community clinic in Pocatello, Idaho.
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It was part of my training.
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At the ivory tower, we want young residents to be exposed to what it's like to work in
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the community.
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So another coincidence.
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I just happened to be in the very office that she came in for follow-up after she was discharged.
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And I looked at her and I said, well, Crystal, I bet you don't remember me, but I sure remember
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you.
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I thought I would never see you, you know, walking and talking like this.
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And she looks at her mother and she says, huh, that's the man that put a tube in my nose.
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I don't like him.
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I didn't like it.
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Okay.
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That's crazy.
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How does she know that?
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That's what I thought.
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I thought that's crazy.
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How could she possibly know that?
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And for people who think that perhaps somehow, you know, maybe she was conscious during her
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resuscitation, we routinely tape the patient's eyes shut because we don't want stuff to fall
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in their eyes while we're resuscitating them, et cetera.
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So she's not seeing in any way.
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And yet she was able to describe her entire resuscitation to me blow by blow.
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Now some people talk about lifting up out of their body and being in that room.
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She mentioned that she was in heaven or some kind of a heavenly place and could just look
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to the side and see what was going on down there with her body.
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That's what she says.
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But all I know is that she accurately described everything that we did.
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She said, then I saw you put me in a big donut, which was her description of a cat scanner.
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I had to call my superiors at Children's Hospital because it's kind of a complex case.
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I didn't know exactly how to handle it.
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She was able to repeat my conversations with them word for word.
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But clearly, I mean, this isn't what I learned in medical school.
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Clearly she was conscious and alert and awake at a time that I know that not only was she
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in coma, but it was in depth of coma that few patients recover from.
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We score comas.
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She had a Glasgow coma score of three.
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It's very unusual for a patient to survive after that profound coma.
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And certainly they're not hearing and seeing and processing information.
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You know, Eric, there's a lot of the reason as a medical professional, I feel obligated
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to discuss these experiences because I'm always hearing people say, well, isn't this
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just some sort of a dream?
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Or isn't this some sort of neurochemicals at the point of death or some sort of hallucinogenic
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hallucination at the point of death, et cetera?
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That does not do justice to what's going on.
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These patients are clinically dead.
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She had no brain activity.
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She is not having hallucination.
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She is not dreaming.
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She, by at least conventional medical training or knowledge, she shouldn't be having any
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experience, none whatsoever.
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Instead, she's having this incredibly complex emotional experience.
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She's accurately describing everything that's happening to her.
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And then she says she's in heaven and talking with the heavenly father and being given a
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choice to return to earth or not.
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And this is not consistent with modern neuropsychiatry.
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Are you familiar with the study that just came out?
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I'm not sure from where that tried to explain these, the way that you just did, whereas
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there's some kind of chemical reaction that happens when your heart stops.
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Are you familiar with that?
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Yes.
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If nonsense.
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These things are done.
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They're actually real life critical care physicians.
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These are patients that I personally resuscitated by and large.
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After Crystal's experience, I returned to Seattle Children's Hospital.
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I was working with the head of the Department of Neurology, the head of the Department of
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the Intensive Care Unit.
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And we basically said this does not fit what we're taught in the medical textbooks.
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And we needed to investigate further.
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So we systematically studied every single survivor of cardiac arrest at Seattle Children's
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Hospital over a 15 year period.
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And I'm talking about patients that I personally put a needle in their heart to restart their
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heart.
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So I mean, there is not, these are not neurochemical bizarre reactions at the point of death.
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These are brains that are not functioning.
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And yet the only way to explain this is to flip what we thought medical science for years
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has thought that the brain creates consciousness.
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The only way to understand the near death experience is to see consciousness as using
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the brain to create this reality.
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Because then now it makes sense when the brain dies, then of course, consciousness becomes
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expanded.
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You have a greater sense of consciousness and awareness.
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So once the brain is out of the way, then of course, you can hear and see things that
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that are limited by our five senses.
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And remember, we can only see what we can perceive with our senses.
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Once the brain is dead, then the consciousness is freed to experience a much greater array
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of reality.
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Well, what kids call the real, real.
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It was real.
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It was real.
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Dr. Morse, it was realer than real.
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And that only makes sense if not some kind of chemical reaction of the brain, but the
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death of the brain, getting the brain out of the way.
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And that is what's happening in these patients.
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The difficult thing that I have experienced with adults that I've interviewed is they've
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had an amazing experience like what you just described with these children.
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But then they're trying to explain it to me in words that aren't capable of describing
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it.
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We just don't have good enough adjectives yet.
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How did you get the children to describe what they experienced?
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Mostly by drawing pictures.
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Some draw pictures that speak much deeper than any kind of words.
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And furthermore, children have very, they're not trying to translate this into human terminology.
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Their words express the sincere awe and wonder of it.
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As one young man, he was under water for 45 minutes in freezing cold water.
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And there's old adage in critical care medicine, until you're warm and dead, you're not dead.
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So he was successfully resuscitated.
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And he says to me, well, I was in a huge noodle.
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And then he stops and he goes, no, no, it couldn't have been a noodle because noodles
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don't have rainbows in them.
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And so he said it must have been a tunnel.
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So that's you're actually seeing him trying to put this into human terms.
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My favorite one is a young girl.
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She says to me, first, again, this is the one that I had to put a needle in her heart
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to resuscitate her.
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So that's near death.
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I mean, that's that's death.
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Yeah, that's there by any criteria.
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That's not some sort of, you know, there's no specialized neurochemicals going on in
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the brain in that sort of situation.
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Nothing's happening in her brain.
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So she described, she said, yeah, I saw you getting that crash guard thing.
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And I heard all the nurses yelling.
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And she says to me, and then I saw my grandmother.
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And I was just so shocked to see her.
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And then she stops and she says, and then I was back.
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And I said, well, what do you mean by that?
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And she clenches her fists and she says, that's what I'm trying to figure out.
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But I've interviewed enough adults to understand that.
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Well, I don't know if it's unfortunate or not, but adults want to fill that gap.
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It's much harder for an adult to simply say, that's what I'm trying to figure out.
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You know, as adults, we just have a natural instinct to want to fill in the blanks.
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And I mean, you know, going outside the field of near death experiences, by and large, when
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you ask adults, even simple questions like, what was your 14th birthday party like?
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They will tell you in great detail what their 14th birthday party was like.
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And then you can ask their mother.
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The mother says, he didn't have a birthday party when it was 14.
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It's just as adults, we have that urge to fill in the blanks.
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And we fill in the blanks with what we know.
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So you know, obviously then, people are Christians, described Christian religious figures.
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I did a near study of near death experiences in Japan.
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We heard all Japanese religious figures.
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I did a study with some African psychiatrists.
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And we heard all sorts of African imagery.
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They don't travel in tunnels in Africa.
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They get into gourds and they come out of gourds.
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And apparently that has some sort of meaning, you know, which frankly, I don't understand.
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We just have to understand that this reality, Eric, is the invented reality.
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We create a mental model of this reality.
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Our eyes aren't video cameras.
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Our ears aren't microphones.
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Instead, we sample the sensory information that is surrounding us.
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And we take that information in our brain and creates a mental model, which is what
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you and I are experiencing right now.
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Well, our mental models are pretty similar because we have similar brains.
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So think about what happens when you have an experience that's completely outside your
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mental model, that you have absolutely no frame of reference whatsoever.
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So what do I mean by that?
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Well, even the color red, Eric, is a part of a mental model.
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And think about it.
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When you're two and three year old, your parents are constantly telling you, that's red.
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That's red.
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So we have this mutual understanding of what is red.
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But we don't have a mutual understanding of what the light that comes to us when we die
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is.
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We don't have a mutual understanding of what this, I'm going to use the word the kids use,
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is God.
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You know, we don't have a mutual understanding of that.
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And so as a result, then it's very, very difficult, particularly for adults to describe
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these experiences.
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And that's why I love working with kids because they just candidly say, I saw a light and
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it had a lot of good things in it.
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And kids are so ridiculously honest, just blunt, honest.
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They are not going to make something up to make you feel happy.
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But I think it was a great blessing for these children to have a doctor who believed what
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they were saying.
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I've interviewed so many people that said, I had my near death experience 30 years ago.
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I told my doctor and I told my teacher or somebody and they didn't believe me.
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And they said, just keep it quiet because you sound crazy.
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And that must be very difficult emotionally then to process what's happened and to deal
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with it and it's usually 20 years later, they finally feel like they can talk about it.
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But since you are helping children and saying, yes, that's a real thing, I imagine that really
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helped their mental health as well as everything else.
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Eric, what you're saying is heartbreaking because remember what our study was.
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Our study was not, we didn't permit volunteers.
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You know, people didn't come to us with their experiences.
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Instead, we identified survivors of cardiac arrest and then we got their permission, the
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parents permission, to interview the children.
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And we heard that story again and again.
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And it just is heartbreaking and you're absolutely right.
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We had clinical psychologists who worked with us and they worked with those families and
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to try to bring validation to those children and tell those children that they weren't
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crazy because, for example, one child had in fact, she was given the assignment as, you
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know, a typical school assignment, write about the most memorable thing that you can remember.
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And she wrote about her near death experience and the teacher called up her parents and said,
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you know, she's just making stuff up.
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She's like fantasizing and I can't have that in my class.
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You know, that wasn't a class assignment.
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I had another little girl, this kind of a funny twist on it.
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She told me she hadn't told anybody her experience, not even her parents.
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Because remember, we simply interviewed everybody.
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You know, we didn't know whether they had an experience or not.
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And so I said to her, well, how come you didn't tell anybody?
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And she goes, I didn't think you were supposed to be able to talk to God.
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Wow.
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So even at her age.
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Now, I've got to tell you something else about our study.
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Sorry, there's a little out of order, but that's okay.
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I would like to hear a lot about your study.
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So I don't mind you backtracking.
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I'd like to know how many kids were in it, how many remembered something from their experience,
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how many didn't.
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I know I've read recently that in adults who have quote died or in other words, their
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heart stopped, they came back a little under 20% remember something that happened.
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Is that right?
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And is that what your study showed to?
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That's right.
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We're talking about bin von Lommel study and we did our study at Seattle Children's Hospital
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and then I collaborated with bin von Lommel.
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And so he did a very similar study in adults and we wanted to make sure that we were comparing
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you know, apples and apples.
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We wanted to both do very similar studies.
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We don't know why adults report, you know, 12, 20% of them have these kinds of experiences.
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That was not our experience.
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We interviewed 27 children, 23 of them reported some sort of near death experience.
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And we defined a near death experience as meaning that they were conscious and alert
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and awake at a time where we knew that they were clinically dead.
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So most of the kids that we interviewed had this experience.
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Now you talk about this issue of, you know, that oftentimes children aren't believed and
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many times adults aren't believed.
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But our study addressed an issue that really needs to be emphasized because what breaks
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my heart is many people that have these experiences don't believe them themselves.
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And even in the year 2022, after all the research that's been done, I hear people tell me experiences
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that you could start a religion over and yet then they say, oh, but that was just a lack
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of oxygen to my brain.
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Oh, that was just the chemicals that they gave me when I was dying.
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That was just some sort of crazy hallucination.
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Our study and then also PINVon-Lummel study, we looked at that specific issue.
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Remember I told you that we interviewed survivors of cardiac arrest.
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We carefully compared them to other children who were treated with the same chemicals,
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the same lack of oxygen to the brain, were in the same scary intensive care unit, also
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had the feeling that they were going to die.
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So that's one theory.
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You know, these are sort of fear death experiences.
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You know, the brain's way of, I don't know, you know, maybe, you know, making it so death
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doesn't seem so bad or something.
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And none of our control patients had this experience.
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Absolutely not.
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We wanted to really make sure this was correct.
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So we interviewed hundreds of control patients, patients who were exactly like our children
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who survived cardiac arrest except they weren't at the point of death.
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You know, you've got to get the word out, Eric.
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The research has been done.
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You know, this research has been done.
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PINVon-Lummel study was of eight different hospitals in Holland.
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He studied hundreds of adults and found the exact same thing.
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These experiences are the dying experience.
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These studies are published in the most prestigious medical journals.
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PINVon-Lummel study is published in the Lancet, which is arguably the most prestigious medical
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journal.
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We published our studies in the American Medical Association's medical journals.
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So has it made a difference?
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Do most doctors now believe this or are most still skeptical?
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No, most doctors believe this.
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I don't think the problem is doctors.
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I think it's the problem is that this has not trickled down into the general public
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yet.
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I think it's just, well, I'll just give you a hint.
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So I'm always hearing from people, they'll say, will scientists say that these experiences
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aren't real?
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So I say, okay, which scientist was that?
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Even if it was a scientist, usually it isn't.
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But if it was a scientist, it was a scientist who's outside the field.
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It was just not aware of this type of research.
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But I don't know of any, certainly no practicing physicians, nobody who's in the hospital setting
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dealing with dying patients.
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We all understand that this experience is in fact the dying experience.
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The general public, I think, is having a harder time.
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And that's interesting because it's true.
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40 years ago, doctors used to tell patients they were crazy.
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And I would agree that 40 years ago, doctors by and large thought that these experiences
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were hallucinations.
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But I just don't think that's true anymore.
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I think it's that the resistance will not really resist.
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It's our society.
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Our society is not nurturing spirituality.
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That we don't see spirituality as something that's real is, I think, the long and short
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of it.
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Yeah, I have questions about that.
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One of them is, and you may have to speculate on this, is it because people think, okay,
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if these are real, then there must be a God?
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I mean, is that the leap that some people are making why they don't want to accept it?
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All right, Eric, what's the name of our show again?
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Roundtrip Death.
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Roundtrip Death.
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Okay.
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People that have died and come back to tell us about it.
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Yeah.
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And at least in the medical literature, that's been there for well over 100 years.
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And I don't know of any scientific or medical literature that disputes that this is in fact
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the dying experience.
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So let's see, Eric, when people die, they by and large have an expanded sense of consciousness
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and awareness.
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They think that they're outside their body.
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They think that they're merging with some sort of spiritual light.
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Children who I've interviewed now, dozens and dozens of children.
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And I just, I love children because they're not trying to, you know, the word God can
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be a very divisive word for adults.
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You know, some people, oh God, I've given lectures and people come up to me and they
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say, I don't believe in God.
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I believe in a higher power.
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And it's just great to talk to children because they say, God told me that he saved me when
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that came up.
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I was telling the nurses that our team had saved her and she corrected us and she said,
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no, God saved me.
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Oh, there's a humbling experience for a doctor.
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That was great.
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Anyway, so at the point of death, your consciousness has expanded and you think you see God.
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Well, Occam's razor, which is, you know, the principle that the simplest solution is probably
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the right solution.
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Occam's razor would be, maybe there's a God.
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I mean, it's kind of hard to reach any other conclusion.
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I'll tell you this much.
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I certainly agree that these are not after death experiences.
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And I have many thoughtful conversations with other neuroscientists, et cetera, who do point
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out that, you know, this isn't an after death experience.
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These people are clinically dead, sure, but, you know, the death is not as cut and dry as,
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you know, as people think.
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You know, we have patients that have no vital signs for 20 minutes and they come back to
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life and we have other patients that you think they're going to get up and leave the hospital
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and they abruptly, you know, pass over.
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But when these guys try to explain or women try to explain why we would see God when we
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die, they twist themselves into knots.
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It's almost impossible to explain other than there actually is a God.
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I mean, it's just, why would we evolve such a system?
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What possible evolutionary, you know, why would human beings evolve seeing a God when
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they die?
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It doesn't help you to live any longer.
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Doesn't make your life any better.
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Has no survival advantage.
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You get all twisted up and that's why you have all these ridiculous, oh, well, it must
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be this neurochemical is being released to death and this and the other.
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The near death experience is an amazingly complex experience that involves emotions,
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sensation, intellect, rational, you know, every part of, you know, of your intelligence.
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That's not some sort of dysfunctional hallucination when you die.
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That's an incredible experience of another reality.
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There's no other way to scientifically explain it.
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And remember, I told you about the color red, you know, colors.
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Yes.
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Okay.
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So David Aigleman, who is I don't know, I think he's the premier neuroscientist explaining
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the brain and he points out that we can't imagine a color that we can't actually perceive.
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So because like I said, we create colors in our brain, brain colors do not exist in nature.
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And yet those who have the near death experience suddenly see colors that they have never seen
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before.
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And if that, that to me is one of the most powerful pieces of evidence that they are
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seeing something real because it's just, if the brain just doesn't work that way, we
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can make up a color unless we have some sort of sensory input that goes along with it.
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So when these children say to me, I saw colors that I've never seen before.
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I believe them.
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They're seeing something that does not exist in this very limited reality.
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We had an artist on this show a little while back.
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He's a painter.
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He had a near death experience.
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Really interesting, saw a lot of nature and that kind of thing.
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And I asked him if he had tried to paint it because he can't describe the colors well
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enough.
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And he said, you know, I tried to paint it, but the colors were not in my palette.
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Exactly.
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But this might sound like a minor point, it is not.
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To me, that's the most compelling piece of evidence that near death experiences are real
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is that they see colors that do not exist in this reality because we simply don't.
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So that, I guess that throws out the hallucination hypothesis, what I'm saying, when you hallucinate,
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you see colors of this reality.
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When you are seeing something that is truly unique, it's just, remember, we only see a
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tiny visible spectrum of light.
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So suddenly, when our brains out of the way, when our eyes are out of the way, all of a
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sudden we can see the whole range of colors that there are.
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So they're seeing something real.
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Well, if they're seeing something real, they're probably seeing a real God too.
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I'll tell you what I did to try to answer this question.
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First, I got to tell you why I was inspired to do it.
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God, I love working with kids.
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So this kid, he tells me about his near death experience, and then he goes, but was it real,
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Dr. Morse?
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Because it was real.
472
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,680
You got to tell all the old people.
473
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:36,200
So I really took that seriously, and I tried to think to myself, how can we know if this
474
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,080
is real?
475
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:44,560
Well, they see God, but I don't know how we can prove if God is real or not.
476
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,960
I don't even know if we can define God.
477
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,560
But this is something that they do say.
478
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,480
They say they enter in a world of all knowledge.
479
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,520
They say that suddenly they know everything.
480
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:05,560
They understand all of reality.
481
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,720
So that's something that we can test.
482
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:09,160
Is that true?
483
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:19,200
Is there truly a informational reality that all information exists in, that we can access?
484
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,320
And we can't.
485
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:26,280
And we know that because of the science of control-removing.
486
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:32,800
And control-removing is the art of entering into that informational universe and coming
487
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:38,040
back with very specific and validatable pieces of information.
488
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:43,720
Now, that sounds kind of real.
489
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:50,680
I mean, this whole journey for me has been a long way from Johns Hopkins.
490
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:58,160
First learning that dead, dying brains actually have an expanded sense of consciousness.
491
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:03,800
And then learning, or at least speculating, that we can access information beyond our
492
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,080
ordinary senses.
493
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:14,840
So that was something that I just, you know, I couldn't take other people's word for it.
494
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:19,520
And so I went to military remote viewers.
495
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:24,280
You know, our government has a huge program of control-removing.
496
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,200
And I learned how to do it.
497
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,480
And it's absolutely true.
498
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:34,640
You can, in fact, enter into this informational reality and come back with real verifiable
499
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:42,480
information in the United States government, where Saddam Hussein was discovered in part
500
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,160
by military remote viewers.
501
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,760
Can you explain a little bit more what that is?
502
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:48,200
What does that mean?
503
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:53,840
Remote viewing is the ability to get information from beyond your ordinary senses.
504
00:38:53,840 --> 00:39:03,920
So for example, well, you know, Saddam Hussein is halfway across the world.
505
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,520
They were trying to find him on a farm.
506
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,720
And they were unable to find him.
507
00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:19,320
Military remote viewers, they have a very specific protocol that they use that was developed
508
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:24,120
by scientists at the Stanford Research Institute.
509
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:30,480
And they worked their protocol, and they determined that Saddam Hussein was in a dark and closed
510
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,200
place that was probably underground.
511
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:40,560
And sure enough, that led to actionable intelligence, and they found Saddam Hussein.
512
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:47,560
So they've recovered down their craft.
513
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:56,120
They can, Soviet military secrets have been looked at by remote viewers.
514
00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:02,840
And basically they're sitting in a room in Fort Meade, Maryland, and accessing information
515
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:07,800
and that you, you know, doesn't come through your ordinary senses.
516
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:16,720
Well, the only way that could really be true is if that information exists in some sort
517
00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:23,400
of, you know, informational reality, which is what people that have near death experiences.
518
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:24,760
That's what they say.
519
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:29,600
They say they enter into a world in which they know everything.
520
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,960
And this is not actually all that farfetched.
521
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:40,800
Information theory is in fact the reigning scientific theory of how the universe works.
522
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:49,520
And information theory essentially says that reality consists first and foremost foremost
523
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:51,200
of information.
524
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:56,920
And then the material world is based on that information.
525
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:09,800
So this idea that we're basically information, not material beings, is a, that it's a respectable
526
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,560
scientific theory.
527
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:19,320
It has practical applications and control of viewing, which our government spend millions
528
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:23,520
of dollars and people have near death experiences.
529
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:24,520
That's what they describe.
530
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,680
I'm sure you've heard that from adults as well.
531
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:28,680
Sure.
532
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:34,840
So at least that tiny piece of the near death experience is definitely real.
533
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:35,840
Yeah.
534
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:41,280
For our listeners who maybe love all the hardcore science kind of stuff, are there any other
535
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,360
studies on near death experiences that you would recommend?
536
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:46,360
Okay.
537
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:47,360
There is.
538
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:48,840
Let's narrow it down.
539
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:53,560
Where would someone start if they wanted to see some?
540
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:57,440
Here's the problem with near death research.
541
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,800
Everybody has a little piece of the puzzle.
542
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:05,240
And I'm just going to have to say that you got to go to my website.
543
00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:08,480
That's what I put my website for.
544
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:15,640
It's melvinmoresmd.com because I tried to put all these little pieces together.
545
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,880
I'm laughing just because this is so astonishing.
546
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:25,800
The military did their own study of near death experiences.
547
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:31,840
And they experimentally proved the near death experiences are real.
548
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:41,560
But you've never heard of that, Eric, because it was published in an aeronautics scientific
549
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:49,400
journal, which most people, particularly consciousness researchers and spiritual seekers, don't actually
550
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,640
read the aeronautics literature.
551
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:57,240
But this study came out of the National Warfare Institute.
552
00:42:57,240 --> 00:43:03,960
They took fighter pilots and they whirled them in centrifuges at tremendous speeds.
553
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:11,440
And their goal was to see what kind of G forces the pilots could endure.
554
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:17,560
Because obviously they don't want a plane to be able to fly faster than a pilot can
555
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:24,760
handle, you know, with blackout and crash their plane and lose, you know, millions of
556
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:29,280
dollars in the aircraft, which I'm sure was their main concern.
557
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,720
Judge, I don't want to be in that study either.
558
00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:39,240
Well, I know the guys that did that study and that does seem to be their main concern.
559
00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:49,760
But anyway, so they whirled in these centrifuges and the pilots lose consciousness.
560
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:51,520
They go into coma.
561
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,920
They frequently have seizures.
562
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:58,240
They lose their, you know, bowel tone.
563
00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:05,440
And then right at the point of death, when the blood flow has theoretically stopped
564
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,320
in their brain.
565
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:15,640
These fighter pilots regain consciousness and they frequently have out of body experiences.
566
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:23,040
They have the same kind of amazing spiritual experience.
567
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,160
And it's transformative.
568
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:33,440
I did a study of the transformations of, you know, people that have near death experiences
569
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:34,440
are quite transformed.
570
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:39,040
I wrote a book about that called transform by the light.
571
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:45,480
These military pilots, after they have these types of experiences, they immediately quit
572
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:50,560
the military and become family therapists and stuff like that.
573
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:51,560
Okay.
574
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:56,280
I thought you were going to say they become priests or something.
575
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:57,720
The wealth that I don't know.
576
00:44:57,720 --> 00:45:03,680
I only know one of my good friends was actually one of the military fighter pilots who went
577
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:13,160
through this and he spent most of his time doing war games for the national warfare Institute.
578
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:18,200
After he had his centrifuge experience, he immediately quit the military.
579
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:26,800
He has a nonprofit in which he supports disabled veterans and became a family therapist.
580
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:34,680
And according to the head researcher, Jim Winery is another guy I know pretty well.
581
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:39,920
He told me the same kind of thing happens that these experiences are transformative.
582
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,880
So that the science is there.
583
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,720
They're just, you can't get away from it.
584
00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:53,640
If I read on Facebook one more time that science debunks near death experiences, I'm just going
585
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:54,640
to barf.
586
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,520
The science is there.
587
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,200
You know, you can believe everything on Facebook.
588
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,840
For those that don't know me, sarcasm comes naturally.
589
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,240
Let's talk about something you just mentioned for a second.
590
00:46:07,240 --> 00:46:10,120
You mentioned transformative, how it changes people.
591
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:12,280
Eric, I'm going to interrupt you.
592
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:13,920
I'm sorry to do this to you.
593
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:14,920
It's okay.
594
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:15,920
Go right ahead.
595
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:22,840
It's just I've done this for 35 years and I don't really have a horse in the race because
596
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,840
my income is primarily from being a physician.
597
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:31,320
All of the money I made from my books, I plowed back into my research.
598
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:37,360
I, you know, I lectured and still do lecture quite a bit.
599
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:41,480
You know, again, I always donate my lecture fees back to the institution.
600
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:47,320
I consider this to be sacred information that people need to know about.
601
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:52,520
And I feel honored that these are patients that I buy in large, resuscitated or, you
602
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:54,080
know, my team did.
603
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,400
So we don't have to have all that, you know, were they really near death and all that kind
604
00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,440
of stuff.
605
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,600
And I meet skeptics all the time.
606
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,440
People who say, you know, this is, this is bunk.
607
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,440
This isn't true.
608
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:16,200
And by and large, I find that almost everybody I meet has had some sort of profound spiritual
609
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:22,480
experience and they dismiss it and they trivialize it.
610
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:29,040
And they don't think it's scientific and they don't, they don't feel validated.
611
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,120
And that's got to stop.
612
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,680
Science is validating your spiritual experiences.
613
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:41,400
If the near death experience is real and it is, then your premonition of death is real.
614
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:45,440
Your after death experience is real.
615
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:51,880
The experience you had that your Christmas cactus had always bloomed in late November
616
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:58,200
and now it's starting to bloom on the anniversary of your son's passing.
617
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,000
That's real.
618
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:05,480
And you know, maybe science can't prove that, but the science of the near death experience
619
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:12,520
is so solid, is so profound, is so unshakable.
620
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:20,080
That really, to me, it really validates the whole range of spiritual experiences.
621
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:25,920
And even the most skeptical people, by and large, they've often had spiritual experiences
622
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:31,560
and then they look around, there's a lot of con artists and, you know, and they don't
623
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:33,840
get any validation.
624
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:39,760
And you know, then there are people that, you know, just prey on, you know, the con artists
625
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:47,160
that are just, you know, trying to, you know, I don't know what their motives are, but you
626
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:52,000
got to look past all that and start to trust your instincts because your spiritual experiences
627
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,680
are real if these children's experiences are real.
628
00:48:55,680 --> 00:49:02,320
I know people on your show are having many of them wonder, was that experience that I
629
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,360
have real?
630
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:12,400
And it's further complicated, particularly as you mentioned in adults, because many of
631
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:19,600
the aspects of them are parts of their own personal lives that are woven into the experience.
632
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:25,680
And so it's hard to sort out, you know, what is sort of an invention of their mind, but
633
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:33,480
not an invention of their mind, just making something up, an invention of their mind struggling
634
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,960
to understand the incomprehensible.
635
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:43,920
And it is hard for adults to sort all that out, but they have to start with the knowledge
636
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:46,480
that what happened to them was real.
637
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:54,760
And once they start with that bedrock certainty, then they can tease out the rest and go, oh,
638
00:49:54,760 --> 00:50:01,440
yeah, you know, that part of it, that, you know, that's from my own religious upbringing.
639
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:08,320
And that part of it was my own preconception in what I expected the heaven to be like.
640
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:09,320
Oh, yes.
641
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:16,480
And look, that part there, that was the real deal that came from heaven to me.
642
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:20,840
But they're not going to be able to sort that out if they're constantly second guessing
643
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:22,360
themselves.
644
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:27,400
And that's a normal thing as adults, because, you know, especially if somebody tells you
645
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:32,160
you're crazy for trying to explain it, and we may believe them.
646
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:35,720
And so then we have to say, okay, what really happened?
647
00:50:35,720 --> 00:50:36,720
Was I dreaming?
648
00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:38,960
Was I, was it the pain meds?
649
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:39,960
What was it?
650
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:40,960
Right?
651
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:41,960
Right.
652
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:46,760
So let's, yeah, let's validate what people really experienced.
653
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:47,760
Yeah.
654
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,480
What does it mean to be crazy?
655
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:57,760
Crazy is simply the dysfunction of your brain.
656
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:07,400
It's, you know, it's when you're not oriented to person place, you're misperceiving things,
657
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:13,840
you're taking ordinary experiences and twisting them in some way because of your own personal
658
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:24,000
fears, or your own psychology, or your own biochemistry, you know, I mean, psychiatric
659
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:30,960
and mental health disorders are very complex, but they all involve dysfunction.
660
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:40,280
The near death experience and spiritual experiences in general involve the proper function of easily
661
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,920
a third of your brain.
662
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:50,200
So by definition, you're not crazy for having them because at least a third of our brain
663
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,440
is dedicated to having spiritual experiences.
664
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:54,440
Yeah.
665
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:58,080
I'm going to just brag about all the books I read, I guess.
666
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,000
I wrote a book called Where God Lives.
667
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:08,800
I wrote that in 2004, in which we said that we have an area in our brain in the right
668
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:15,800
temporal lobe, which is right above your ear, we call it the God spot, and that connects
669
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:17,680
your brain to the universe.
670
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:20,920
You know, we're talking earlier about the informational universe.
671
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:22,480
All right.
672
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:31,240
Since that time, no neuroscientist has challenged what we wrote, and I published it in the medical
673
00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:33,360
literature as well.
674
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:40,520
The only scientists that have challenged it have said, wait a minute, Morris was all wrong.
675
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:42,360
It's not a God spot.
676
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,040
It's a God brain.
677
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:50,040
Mario Beauregard wrote a book called The Spiritual Brain, in which he showed a third
678
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:55,720
of the brain is dedicated to having spiritual experiences.
679
00:52:55,720 --> 00:53:01,960
And a guy named Nelson wrote an excellent book called The Spiritual Doorway to the Brain.
680
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:05,080
Now Nelson doesn't happen to believe in God.
681
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:12,120
Well, that's, you know, I mean, that's an issue of faith, but his book clearly documents
682
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:16,880
that we are hardwired to have spiritual experiences.
683
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:24,280
So for some reason, some people say, oh, well, you're saying this is just in our brain, as
684
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:32,240
if that somehow discounts the experience, this experience you and I are having right
685
00:53:32,240 --> 00:53:36,000
now, Eric, it's just in our brain.
686
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:42,120
I can even tell you the areas of your brain which are dedicated to having this experience.
687
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,080
It feels awfully real to me.
688
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:45,080
Yeah.
689
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:49,800
We have a huge visual cortex that allows us to see things.
690
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:51,800
Nobody doubts those are real.
691
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:57,320
We've got a big auditory cortex that allows us to hear things.
692
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:05,400
We have a frontal lobe that allows us to process all sorts of higher mental processing.
693
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:07,080
Nobody doubts that real.
694
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:11,360
And we've got a big area of our brain which allows us to communicate with God.
695
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:18,760
Who's ever listening to this, please just accept the word God the way kids use it.
696
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:26,440
You know, when I understand that unfortunately God, for many people, has now gotten all twisted
697
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:30,560
up with the dogma of various religions, et cetera.
698
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:31,560
That's unfortunate.
699
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:35,160
I'm not using that in God in that sense.
700
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:39,520
You know, I'm not saying one person's God is the right God, another one's the wrong
701
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:40,520
God.
702
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:46,800
I'm just saying that just the way kids tell me that they saw God when they died, we have
703
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:51,760
an area of our brain which allows us to perceive whatever this God is.
704
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:58,440
And it is unfortunate that a lot of people seem to twist up something as simple and beautiful
705
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:03,280
as God with a lot of their own preconceptions of dogmas.
706
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:04,440
Okay.
707
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:07,840
I did ask you a question a while ago and that's okay.
708
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:09,600
Before we get to that.
709
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:13,160
I mean, when you ask me, is there a God?
710
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:19,520
I'm not even a religious person, I was raised in an agnostic Jewish household, but when we
711
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:22,120
die we see God.
712
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:25,480
So and that's a scientific fact.
713
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:26,680
Okay.
714
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:29,920
So I don't know.
715
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:36,040
I mean, but I understand that unfortunately, because I've had enough discussions with adults
716
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:41,080
to know that once you start talking about God, they're all rolling around the floor,
717
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:46,720
gouging each other's eyes out and well, then my God says, isn't my God sad in this, that
718
00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:47,720
and the other?
719
00:55:47,720 --> 00:55:51,320
Well, that doesn't seem to be the God we see when we die.
720
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:57,520
The God we see when we die is a light that has a lot of love in it.
721
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:01,840
It has a lot of good things in it and it teaches us something.
722
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:08,720
It's teaching us that we're here to learn lessons of love and that's it in a nutshell.
723
00:56:08,720 --> 00:56:10,480
And that's the word I hear the most.
724
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:11,480
Love.
725
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:16,520
Love, indescribable, pure love.
726
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:19,560
So maybe we need to redefine God.
727
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:20,560
God is love.
728
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:27,240
You know, maybe near-death experiencers have something to teach us about what God is.
729
00:56:27,240 --> 00:56:28,560
Absolutely.
730
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,400
How do we help those that have had near-death experiences?
731
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:35,920
We've talked a little bit about how some of the things that we do kind of hurt them in
732
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:41,640
a way and how we need to support them, but if you were, say, a parent of a child that
733
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:46,240
had had one of these experiences, what can you do to help them?
734
00:56:46,240 --> 00:56:47,240
Listen.
735
00:56:47,240 --> 00:56:54,160
I think that listening non-judgmentally is crucial.
736
00:56:54,160 --> 00:57:00,840
I don't think there's, you know, it's as simple and as difficult as that.
737
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:02,340
It's difficult.
738
00:57:02,340 --> 00:57:10,160
It's difficult to listen non-judgmentally and it's difficult to listen without our own preconceptions.
739
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,280
I'll tell you a funny story.
740
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:21,760
One of my patients had a near-death experience and she was then left with the perception
741
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:27,440
that her grandmother was always with her, her grandmother who'd passed.
742
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:32,600
Her grandmother was helping her with her homework.
743
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:33,600
Okay.
744
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:34,600
Why not?
745
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:35,600
Yeah.
746
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:41,920
I mean, these experiences are very real and very pragmatic.
747
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:50,080
Another experience a young man told me that his father would pass, still took him fishing.
748
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:54,320
You know, it was sort of there spiritually where the money went fishing.
749
00:57:54,320 --> 00:58:00,720
So finally she says to her grandmother's pass, she says, so what is heaven like?
750
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:05,200
And the grandmother tells her, you know, it's really pretty with flowers, you know, the
751
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:09,120
kind of thing that you would tell a child that heaven is like.
752
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:16,480
So she then told her mother, yes, well, this conflicted with their church's belief of
753
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:20,840
what heaven was like.
754
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:29,520
This church was a fundamentalist Christian church and had a very different idea of heaven.
755
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:37,080
And this led to then tremendous conflict because then the mother felt stuck in the middle.
756
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:44,560
She's trying to tell her religious leader what her daughter's telling her about heaven.
757
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:52,840
And now the daughter is feeling, you know, she's feeling like she's done something wrong.
758
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:56,520
You know, she's gotten all the adults in her life upset.
759
00:58:56,520 --> 00:59:00,320
And you know, now the pastor is coming and listening to her.
760
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:02,920
So what did you hear heaven was like?
761
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:04,360
And you know, all this kind of stuff.
762
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:10,680
And when I heard the whole story, it sounded to me like the grandmother was just telling
763
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:15,400
her what anybody would tell a seven year old child heaven was like.
764
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:23,360
It wasn't some sort of religious, you know, definitive view of what was heaven.
765
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:26,640
It just was the sort of thing you might tell a child.
766
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:30,880
And so it is, it's harder to listen than you think.
767
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:38,640
So what would you say to some sort of a religious leader like that pastor or whoever, who a
768
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:45,080
child or an adult comes to them and says, I had this kind of experience, but maybe it's
769
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:51,160
not exactly in line with what you're teaching in your religion.
770
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:52,160
What do you do?
771
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:58,760
I'm not sure that it would be for me to speak to that religious leader.
772
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:04,640
I just, I don't, because the things that I would say, remember, I'm a critical care
773
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:05,640
physician.
774
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:09,600
I mean, really, I'm not too much about process.
775
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:12,400
I'm pretty much about the bottom line.
776
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:16,920
But I, you know, to me, I can just speak for myself.
777
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:18,720
We got to be humble.
778
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:19,720
Really.
779
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:28,120
And, you know, this idea that we know God better than someone who's died and actually
780
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:32,560
been in contact, you know, to me, they're the gold standard.
781
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:39,480
I mean, even if you really read the religious tracks and the Bible and, you know, the various
782
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:44,840
religious writings, they only say you've got to get the ego out of there to understand
783
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:45,840
God.
784
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:50,280
And it's our own ego that keeps us from understanding God.
785
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:55,760
Well, that's a great way to get rid of your ego is to have your brain die.
786
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:59,080
That you don't have much ego after that.
787
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:05,480
And so I would think that that experience is the peer experience of whatever this God
788
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:06,640
is.
789
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:08,400
I think that's well said.
790
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:13,120
And let's start with what you said prior to my question, which is just listen.
791
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:14,120
Yeah.
792
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:18,560
We don't have to take what they said and try to interpret it for them.
793
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:20,560
Let's just listen.
794
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:22,160
Absolutely.
795
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:23,560
And leave it there.
796
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:24,560
Okay.
797
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:28,880
Getting back to something I asked, seems like ages ago now.
798
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:30,240
20 minutes or so ago.
799
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:31,720
The transformation.
800
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:32,720
Transformation.
801
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:36,240
How do these change people?
802
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:38,520
I'm sorry.
803
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:39,520
I'm laughing.
804
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:41,000
I'm laughing because...
805
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:42,000
That's okay.
806
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:44,200
Let's have a good time here.
807
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:52,120
This journey has been so astonishing for me and nothing really is all the encounter
808
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:54,280
intuitive for me.
809
01:01:54,280 --> 01:02:01,080
So we studied adults who had near death experiences as children.
810
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:04,480
And we again systematically studied them.
811
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:08,480
We compared them to six control groups.
812
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:09,920
We're compulsive.
813
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:11,040
We control.
814
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:16,460
We compared them to adults who just were very religious.
815
01:02:16,460 --> 01:02:21,280
We compared them to adults who had no religious beliefs.
816
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:27,920
We compared them to adults who had serious life threatening events but didn't have near
817
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:32,600
death experience on and on like that.
818
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:38,120
And we learned what the great secret of life is by doing this.
819
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:42,240
And the secret of life is to be nice.
820
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:43,240
To be kind.
821
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:46,520
That's what we learned.
822
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:48,040
And then just stop right there.
823
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:49,040
That's enough.
824
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:51,080
That's what we learned.
825
01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:54,000
People have near death experiences.
826
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:59,840
They're more likely to be in helping professions in our control group.
827
01:02:59,840 --> 01:03:00,840
They...
828
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:05,520
When personality studies, they definitely are nicer.
829
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:07,560
They have almost no fear of death.
830
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:13,760
We gave them all sorts of death, you know, death anxiety questionnaires.
831
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:16,080
A little girl said it to me best.
832
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:21,000
She said, well, I'm not afraid of dying anymore because I think I know a little bit about
833
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:23,960
it now.
834
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:26,720
But they give more money to charity.
835
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:29,640
We looked at their tax returns.
836
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:33,160
But by and large, they're just nice people.
837
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:35,440
They spend more time with their family.
838
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:40,760
They spend more time alone and contemplation.
839
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:46,040
And when we ask them, what did you learn from your experience?
840
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:50,520
When I did these studies, by the way, I was a lot younger and more cynical.
841
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:55,880
And more closer to the sort of arrogant of the critical care doc.
842
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:58,320
So I asked this one guy.
843
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:06,400
I said to him, so, you know, what do you think your near death experience has meant to you?
844
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:14,000
And he said, it told me that I have a very special job to do in this life.
845
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:16,440
And so I'm thinking to myself, oh, great.
846
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:19,120
You know, he's like, he's here to cure cancer.
847
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:23,600
You know, he thinks he's like some special person or, you know, it's giving him some
848
01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:28,200
sort of, I don't know, messiah complex or something.
849
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:30,440
So I said to him, okay, I'll bite.
850
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:32,080
What's your special job?
851
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:36,320
You know, what's your special purpose?
852
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:39,920
And luckily he didn't take offense at my tone.
853
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:43,960
And he looks at me and he goes, I already told you what my job was.
854
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:47,400
I run a small construction company.
855
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:52,760
And he said, those numb nuts that I work with, they could never get a job.
856
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:58,760
If it weren't for me, he hired all his high school friends and he had a small little remodeling
857
01:04:58,760 --> 01:04:59,760
company.
858
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:05,720
And so that was the meaning of his near death experience.
859
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:12,840
That who he thought his life was all about was to run a small remodeling construction
860
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:16,800
company and hire all his high school friends.
861
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:21,880
So what I learned from that is it's the small things in life.
862
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:27,720
It's the ordinary everyday aspects of life that are important.
863
01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:31,600
And when I talk with adults who have near death experiences, I'm sure you've heard the
864
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:32,600
same thing.
865
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:39,720
This one woman I interviewed, she was the head of a large pharmaceutical company and
866
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:43,200
she's done all sorts of wonderful things with her life.
867
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:47,480
So she has her near death experience and her life review.
868
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:56,760
And she learns that she was kind to a handicapped child when she was in summer camp, when she
869
01:05:56,760 --> 01:05:59,120
was in high school.
870
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:03,160
That was like the highlight of her life.
871
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:05,760
And I've listened up to that.
872
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:06,960
I really have.
873
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:12,680
I just, you know, that the meaning of our lives is to be kind to each other, to be loving
874
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:18,680
to each other, that the ordinary things that we do in life are probably the most important
875
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:19,680
things.
876
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:27,360
And, you know, for an overachiever like myself, you know, proud of my books about Seller and,
877
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:31,640
you know, I graduated with honors and all that kind of stuff.
878
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:37,360
This was really a big wake up call for me to learn that none of that stuff matters.
879
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:41,880
Taking care of my mom in the last year of her life, that's probably one of the most important
880
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:44,960
things I've ever done with my life.
881
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:50,760
Have any of the children that you interviewed and that you studied, did any of them have
882
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:53,880
life reviews like some adults do?
883
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:54,880
No.
884
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:57,320
And that doesn't really surprise me.
885
01:06:57,320 --> 01:07:06,880
The closest one child told me she had had a lot of surgery and had leukemia with numerous
886
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:07,880
relapses.
887
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:14,360
And she had this experience of just thinking, oh my God, you know, I went through all that
888
01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:16,680
and now I'm just going to die.
889
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:20,920
I'm not sure that's the life review that adults have.
890
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:28,960
But even though they don't have a life review, they have a clear sense that this life is
891
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:35,680
about learning lessons of love and learning to love each other and perhaps even more
892
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:41,360
important, learning to accept the love that other people have for us.
893
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:49,480
I mean, even the youngest children, you know, children in the age three, age five, it's
894
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:52,760
not really coming to me how they express it.
895
01:07:52,760 --> 01:08:00,800
But you just get that sense from them that they understand that this world is about love.
896
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:04,760
All right, Dr. Wright, I'm going to get a little bit more personal with you if you don't
897
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:05,760
mind.
898
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:06,760
Yes.
899
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:14,760
I can tell that this topic really, really means a lot to you deep down, deep down.
900
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:19,320
Since getting involved with it, how has it changed you personally?
901
01:08:19,320 --> 01:08:25,320
Well, let me rather than me.
902
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:30,360
I think there's two major ways it's changed me.
903
01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:50,360
One is it's made me pay a lot more attention to other people's feelings and frankly, unloving
904
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:53,000
ways that I've been.
905
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:58,200
My failures of love, my failures of being able to love other people.
906
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:11,440
And thinking that that was important in my life was writing a paper or being the smartest
907
01:09:11,440 --> 01:09:16,840
person on the faculty or the smartest person in the room.
908
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:28,600
So that's for sure is that in learning to accept the love that people have for me, I
909
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:36,240
think that that's probably where it starts with me is understanding that other people
910
01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:37,240
love me.
911
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:44,480
And once I could understand that, it's a lot easier then for me to start to understand
912
01:09:44,480 --> 01:09:49,080
other people and how I've heard them.
913
01:09:49,080 --> 01:09:56,000
And even to the point where I learned a meditative technique called Tong-Glin in which you actually
914
01:09:56,000 --> 01:10:04,120
meditate on the suffering that other people have because I've come to understand that
915
01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:08,640
this is what's important in life is being kind.
916
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:14,880
And so it's changed going to the supermarket for me.
917
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:15,880
It's changed.
918
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:21,320
You know, well, actually I was inspired by a child.
919
01:10:21,320 --> 01:10:29,000
She was a teenager and I asked her, I said, you know, what is it meant to you?
920
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:30,560
And that's what she said to me.
921
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:35,120
She said, I don't mind standing in line at the supermarket anymore because I know there's
922
01:10:35,120 --> 01:10:38,320
only something there that's important.
923
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:40,720
Maybe somebody there needs a smile.
924
01:10:40,720 --> 01:10:45,040
Maybe somebody there, you know, maybe I can make a difference to someone I'm standing
925
01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:48,080
next to in line just by.
926
01:10:48,080 --> 01:10:51,280
So it's helped me a lot.
927
01:10:51,280 --> 01:11:03,840
The second thing that it's done is really helped me to forgive myself, to understand
928
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:11,520
that when we die, we're going to get a big hug from God and we're going to get an out-of-boy
929
01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:15,280
and we're going to get a sense of you did your best.
930
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:22,880
I mean, even Nazi prison guards that have had near-death experiences report that.
931
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:30,680
And this is not just something for myself, but I work a lot with the ex-incarcerated,
932
01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:38,840
the prisoners are struggling with their own spiritual issues and the knowledge that when
933
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:44,440
we die, you're not punished for your sins.
934
01:11:44,440 --> 01:11:54,760
But your sins are put in perspective as that they're part of why we're here, that they
935
01:11:54,760 --> 01:12:02,480
had something important to teach us that whatever it was, that whatever we're struggling with
936
01:12:02,480 --> 01:12:04,280
was a lesson.
937
01:12:04,280 --> 01:12:06,160
Maybe we failed the lesson.
938
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:09,320
Maybe we totally screwed it up.
939
01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:11,720
And certainly I have.
940
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:24,040
But on the other hand, seeing it in that context, I think it helps because once you get crippled
941
01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:33,280
by a sense of that you're worthless or shame or guilt, then that in itself prevents you
942
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:40,360
from forgiving others and forgiving yourself and then making restitution.
943
01:12:40,360 --> 01:12:50,840
Whereas when you know that what awaits us is a hug and you did your best, to me that
944
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:52,800
makes all the difference.
945
01:12:52,800 --> 01:12:55,800
And whatever it is that I'm struggling with.
946
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:58,040
So those are the two ways that it helps me.
947
01:12:58,040 --> 01:13:10,240
It's helped me to be kinder, to pay attention to how I affect others.
948
01:13:10,240 --> 01:13:13,240
And it's helped me to...
949
01:13:13,240 --> 01:13:17,120
That sounds like a weird thing, you know, to forgive yourself.
950
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:29,840
But oddly enough, forgiving yourself is an important part of moving forward and making
951
01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:34,760
restitution and improving yourself.
952
01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:38,320
You know, I'll expand on that just a little bit.
953
01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:44,520
I'll share with you a story from a good friend of mine.
954
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:53,080
He unfortunately got drunk one night and ran over a elderly woman and killed her.
955
01:13:53,080 --> 01:14:03,960
And after years struggling with this in serve time and prison, of course, he got to the
956
01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:07,160
point where he forgave himself.
957
01:14:07,160 --> 01:14:11,120
So I said to him, well, so that's kind of easy, isn't it?
958
01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:17,280
So he just decided to forgive yourself for getting drunk and running somebody over.
959
01:14:17,280 --> 01:14:24,200
And I said, well, what would you tell that woman's son?
960
01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:29,240
Would you just say to him, oh, I just forgave myself?
961
01:14:29,240 --> 01:14:32,840
And he said, actually, I would do that.
962
01:14:32,840 --> 01:14:39,360
He said, you know, that I realized that what I did was part of my spiritual journey.
963
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:43,320
And I would explain that to that woman's son.
964
01:14:43,320 --> 01:14:47,160
And I would tell him, you know, it's part of your spiritual journey too.
965
01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:53,600
How you want to react to me, whether you can forgive me, whether you don't, you know, that's
966
01:14:53,600 --> 01:14:55,000
your spiritual journey.
967
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:59,280
But he said, but don't think that this is something that's easy.
968
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:05,320
He said, I wasn't able to forgive myself until I took the barrel of the gun out of my mouth.
969
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:11,200
You know, meaning that he was going to kill himself and then, you know, but it's true
970
01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:14,280
that he couldn't then move forward.
971
01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:20,440
Once he forgave himself, then he could start doing the hard work of figuring out how he
972
01:15:20,440 --> 01:15:22,040
can be a better person.
973
01:15:22,040 --> 01:15:25,640
And I've had that experience as well.
974
01:15:25,640 --> 01:15:36,480
I didn't understand the near death experience until I had my own problems with I was convicted
975
01:15:36,480 --> 01:15:37,480
of crime.
976
01:15:37,480 --> 01:15:41,480
I don't want to go into all the details of that.
977
01:15:41,480 --> 01:15:44,720
It's a bit of a complex case.
978
01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:53,040
But what I do want to say is that I never understood anything about near death experiences
979
01:15:53,040 --> 01:16:02,480
until I had my experience of the life experience of really having to confront my own behavior
980
01:16:02,480 --> 01:16:08,240
and really have to look at what kind of person am I?
981
01:16:08,240 --> 01:16:16,040
Have I done the things and behaved in ways that I am proud of?
982
01:16:16,040 --> 01:16:21,400
Prior to that, the near death experience was an intellectual exercise for me.
983
01:16:21,400 --> 01:16:25,200
It was something that I really did as a fellow.
984
01:16:25,200 --> 01:16:29,360
I wanted to publish papers.
985
01:16:29,360 --> 01:16:34,840
That's the academic, you know, I wanted to write books.
986
01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:40,880
As I told you, I wasn't interested in making money off the books, but I certainly saw it
987
01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:43,800
as an ego exercise.
988
01:16:43,800 --> 01:16:48,200
And none of this stuff ever touched me personally.
989
01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:52,400
I had my own struggles.
990
01:16:52,400 --> 01:16:59,680
You know, that's when I really learned what the near death experience is all about.
991
01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:09,360
This knowledge that we're here to learn lessons of love and to know that that is, in my opinion,
992
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:13,600
a scientific fact in the year 2022.
993
01:17:13,600 --> 01:17:16,760
I don't see that as a philosophical statement.
994
01:17:16,760 --> 01:17:26,160
Well, then that then brings you directly to what lessons of love am I learning?
995
01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:29,520
And am I learning them appropriately?
996
01:17:29,520 --> 01:17:35,920
And what am I doing to, you know, or am I failing in my lessons of love?
997
01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:39,360
Thank you so much for opening up, being vulnerable.
998
01:17:39,360 --> 01:17:40,360
Wow.
999
01:17:40,360 --> 01:17:41,480
I appreciate it.
1000
01:17:41,480 --> 01:17:43,280
What's next for you?
1001
01:17:43,280 --> 01:17:52,400
I think at this point, I'm trying to understand how I can best share with people that science
1002
01:17:52,400 --> 01:18:00,320
does in fact validate the near death experience and spiritual experiences in general.
1003
01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:09,560
And so people can see how this has applications for grieving for grief resolution.
1004
01:18:09,560 --> 01:18:16,640
And then I have a particular interest in working with recidivism prevention, working with the
1005
01:18:16,640 --> 01:18:22,400
X incarcerated and bringing another heroine addiction.
1006
01:18:22,400 --> 01:18:26,960
I think that there's a spiritual aspect to that that we can learn from, you know, apply
1007
01:18:26,960 --> 01:18:33,680
the lessons of the near death experience in a practical way to some of the problems that
1008
01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:35,800
our society is facing.
1009
01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:36,800
Okay.
1010
01:18:36,800 --> 01:18:38,920
Dr. Morris.
1011
01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:40,720
You killed it.
1012
01:18:40,720 --> 01:18:43,480
That's a good, that's a good thing.
1013
01:18:43,480 --> 01:18:44,560
Thank you.
1014
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:46,640
I appreciate it so much.
1015
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:47,640
Alrighty.
1016
01:18:47,640 --> 01:18:52,320
I mean, I'm going to ask you if you have any last thoughts first, tell me on a scale of
1017
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:56,280
one to 10, how much fear do you have of death?
1018
01:18:56,280 --> 01:18:58,760
I don't have any fear of death.
1019
01:18:58,760 --> 01:19:07,720
I have a tremendous fear of not being there for my wife has a number of serious medical
1020
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:09,840
problems.
1021
01:19:09,840 --> 01:19:16,160
And I want to be here for she, she might be facing a lung transplant and I want to be here
1022
01:19:16,160 --> 01:19:17,720
for her.
1023
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:22,840
So I fear that part of it, but I don't fear death.
1024
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:26,000
There's nothing to fear about death.
1025
01:19:26,000 --> 01:19:28,800
I don't want to die.
1026
01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:33,560
But the process of dying is joyous and spiritual.
1027
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:39,560
And we had talked earlier about this issue of, well, that the messages of the near death
1028
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:45,480
experience can be inspiring and that they say wonderful things, et cetera.
1029
01:19:45,480 --> 01:19:49,280
I'm not sure that's true, Eric.
1030
01:19:49,280 --> 01:19:54,880
The near death experience to me says that we're here to learn lessons of love.
1031
01:19:54,880 --> 01:20:01,040
Well, those lessons of love by and large are pretty painful at times and can involve a
1032
01:20:01,040 --> 01:20:02,440
lot of suffering.
1033
01:20:02,440 --> 01:20:09,120
And I don't think, and you have to learn, you have to live it.
1034
01:20:09,120 --> 01:20:15,960
It's not a Facebook bumper sticker slogan.
1035
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:23,320
You have to actually make mistakes, fail at those lessons and understand what you did
1036
01:20:23,320 --> 01:20:27,120
wrong and be willing to look at them.
1037
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:35,760
And I didn't understand till I actually had to face my own challenges.
1038
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:46,280
And every single person here that's listening to this, you know, you're, there's a song
1039
01:20:46,280 --> 01:20:52,600
that I often listen to that says, would if your blessings come with tears, what if it's
1040
01:20:52,600 --> 01:20:53,600
raindrops?
1041
01:20:53,600 --> 01:21:04,320
You know, we pray for blessings, but what if it's actually painful experiences of loss
1042
01:21:04,320 --> 01:21:06,360
and suffering?
1043
01:21:06,360 --> 01:21:15,760
It's hard to study near death experiences without coming to that conclusion that there
1044
01:21:15,760 --> 01:21:21,240
is, there's a reason for the various things.
1045
01:21:21,240 --> 01:21:25,840
Well, they say it, I understand why there's war.
1046
01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:30,080
I understand why there's serial killers.
1047
01:21:30,080 --> 01:21:36,440
I understand, you know, and the reason they're saying that is that even in those horrific
1048
01:21:36,440 --> 01:21:41,440
types of experiences are lessons of love to be learned.
1049
01:21:41,440 --> 01:21:46,000
So it's not for sissies, you know, learning your lessons of love.
1050
01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:51,160
Mr. Earthlife is not for sissies, and I do believe there's a message of hope and all
1051
01:21:51,160 --> 01:21:52,160
that.
1052
01:21:52,160 --> 01:21:53,160
Okay.
1053
01:21:53,160 --> 01:21:54,160
Alrighty.
1054
01:21:54,160 --> 01:21:55,160
Okay.
1055
01:21:55,160 --> 01:22:03,880
I see as long as we define the message of hope that at the end of the day, we're going
1056
01:22:03,880 --> 01:22:07,320
to get that hug from God.
1057
01:22:07,320 --> 01:22:09,400
That's beyond dispute.
1058
01:22:09,400 --> 01:22:13,480
We're going to get an out of boy or an out of girl or, you know, we're going to get
1059
01:22:13,480 --> 01:22:18,680
that, that hug of unconditional love and unconditional love.
1060
01:22:18,680 --> 01:22:20,440
Think what that means here.
1061
01:22:20,440 --> 01:22:21,720
People don't think of that.
1062
01:22:21,720 --> 01:22:22,720
I think enough.
1063
01:22:22,720 --> 01:22:28,840
I hear people say all the time, but wait a minute, how can a murderer, you know, go
1064
01:22:28,840 --> 01:22:29,840
to heaven?
1065
01:22:29,840 --> 01:22:36,960
How can a murderer have, you know, this, this dying experience?
1066
01:22:36,960 --> 01:22:41,720
Unconditional love, non-judgmental.
1067
01:22:41,720 --> 01:22:44,160
That means you're not being judged.
1068
01:22:44,160 --> 01:22:52,080
The judgment comes because you judge yourself, and that's far more harsh and yet far more
1069
01:22:52,080 --> 01:23:02,120
spiritually nurturing and leads to greater spiritual development than this, I think,
1070
01:23:02,120 --> 01:23:05,000
distorted idea of a judgmental God.
1071
01:23:05,000 --> 01:23:10,960
The non-judgmental God, I think, is more terrifying in many ways.
1072
01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:13,440
But I believe all lovings still.
1073
01:23:13,440 --> 01:23:14,440
Absolutely.
1074
01:23:14,440 --> 01:23:15,440
Yes.
1075
01:23:15,440 --> 01:23:24,000
And you think of any one really beautiful thing that a child said to you as they were describing
1076
01:23:24,000 --> 01:23:27,240
their experience or drawing their experience?
1077
01:23:27,240 --> 01:23:30,760
Oh my gosh, there's so many.
1078
01:23:30,760 --> 01:23:31,760
Oh.
1079
01:23:31,760 --> 01:23:35,960
Oh, you've got to have a couple of favorites.
1080
01:23:35,960 --> 01:23:44,120
Well, my favorite is, I'll tell you both of my favorites, I guess, one young lady told
1081
01:23:44,120 --> 01:23:54,760
me that she saw a light that told her who she was and where she was to go.
1082
01:23:54,760 --> 01:23:56,960
And she drew a rainbow.
1083
01:23:56,960 --> 01:24:05,920
That was, but I just, my favorite one is the young girl that said to me, I said, I'm
1084
01:24:05,920 --> 01:24:11,000
sure I saw a light and it had a lot of good things in it.
1085
01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:12,920
I just love that one.
1086
01:24:12,920 --> 01:24:13,920
That's great.
1087
01:24:13,920 --> 01:24:14,920
All right.
1088
01:24:14,920 --> 01:24:18,640
Dr. Melvin Morse, thank you so very much again.
1089
01:24:18,640 --> 01:24:20,160
You're so welcome.
1090
01:24:20,160 --> 01:24:22,680
Thank you for an outstanding interview.
1091
01:24:22,680 --> 01:24:24,800
I learned a lot from this.
1092
01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:29,960
You got a lot out of me that doesn't usually, I usually don't think about it, so I appreciate
1093
01:24:29,960 --> 01:24:30,960
it.
1094
01:24:30,960 --> 01:24:33,640
Thank you.
1095
01:24:33,640 --> 01:24:36,640
Thanks again for listening and sharing this podcast.
1096
01:24:36,640 --> 01:24:40,680
If you've had a round trip death experience, we would love to hear from you.
1097
01:24:40,680 --> 01:24:44,080
Send an email to Eric at roundtriptest.com.
1098
01:24:44,080 --> 01:25:13,600
Until then, I wish you everything good that you're looking for in this life and the next.
