Transcript
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From the time that they pronounced me deaf was a good 45 minutes.
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They cut my clothes and then they paddled my heart, my heart had stopped.
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And I could see people screaming and crying, but I didn't realize that was actually my
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physical body because I was somewhere else.
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The only thing that I could feel, if you could imagine, absolute love and peace, there wasn't
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anything else to be felt.
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I was greeted by people I'd known in the past.
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I'm back home again.
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Incredibly safe and felt at home.
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Welcome, welcome to Round Trip Death this morning everybody.
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And a special welcome to Helen Gretchen Jones, our guest today.
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How are you Helen?
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I'm good.
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Thank you for having me.
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I'm sorry, I call you Gretchen, not Helen.
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You've got too many names.
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I do.
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I go by Gretchen, but my first name is Helen.
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There's a lot of Helens in my family.
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Okay, Gretchen it is.
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I like it.
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Sounds kind of German.
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Is that where it's from?
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It is.
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Good.
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Well, just a heads up for our listeners before we get to know you a little bit.
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I think this is going to be really interesting for people, but we are deviating a little
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bit from what we normally do.
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Gretchen has not had a near-death experience, but has a lot of shared-death experiences
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that we're going to talk about today.
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I think we can learn an awful lot from them too.
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And that's why when Gretchen reached out I thought, yeah, it'd be fun to have you on
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the show.
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So, before we jump into those, who's Gretchen?
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Tell us a little bit about you.
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Well, I live in Austin, Texas with my husband and two children.
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They are 19 and 13, so I'm in the teenage years with my kids.
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We have a family ranch where I have llamas and goats, and I spend a lot of my time out
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there with them in nature.
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That's pretty much it.
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I work as a death doula, and so I'm going to share some of that today.
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I love that.
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Do you happen to have alpacas too?
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No alpacas, but I do look at them.
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I'm thinking I would like to get alpacas to run with my llamas.
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I love alpacas.
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You've got to do some alpacas.
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They're so cute.
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They have the cutest little faces.
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The llamas work as guard llamas, so they could also guard the alpacas if they're out there.
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Absolutely.
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Okay.
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Austin has great barbecue too, doesn't it?
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Some of the best in the country, for sure.
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I need to get there just for that reason alone.
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You'll need to spend a week.
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I love trying out barbecue everywhere I travel.
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All right.
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Let's jump into this.
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First of all, how does someone get into being a death doula, and what the heck is it?
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A death doula is someone who helps people to transition holistically to help the patient
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and their families find peace and closure before they actually transition.
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That just makes a ton of sense to me.
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It does.
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I think a lot of people do it naturally when they sit along bedside with their loved ones,
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and they tell them it's okay to go, tell them any kind of regrets that they might have,
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and they have that closure naturally.
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I think that for some patients and some families, that's a little bit harder.
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They're afraid to be vulnerable, or there's a lot of fear or anxiety around death.
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That's where a death doula can step in and assist in that way.
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In this country and culture, at least, I'm not sure how it is in the rest of the world,
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we don't really even like to talk about it.
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If somebody's dying, we don't know how to deal with it, we avoid talking about it.
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It's going to just happen.
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The idea is you and the people that do what you do make it a better experience, both for
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the person passing and for the loved ones left here.
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Is that correct?
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That's correct.
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I would love, and shows like yours are, normalizing talking about death and removing some of
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the stigma and fear that we all fear in the Western culture when we even talk about death.
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It's such a taboo subject.
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Death comes for everyone, obviously.
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It comes for the sick and the healthy, the old and the young.
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It doesn't discriminate.
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If we could all just remember, and when we're sitting with people who are dying, that it's
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okay to talk about it, that it isn't something that we have to avoid all the time.
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That just builds the mystery around it.
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It builds the fear around it, that fear of the unknown, and it makes it something really
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uncomfortable.
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The more we talk about it, the more comfortable it becomes to discuss it.
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The more we start to recognize what we want for our own death, assuming we are given the
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choice of a longer death versus a quick death.
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We actually start to live our lives with more open hearts.
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We start to think, well, if I were to go tomorrow, I don't want to go with this fight happening
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between me and my loved one with things unsaid, with unfinished business.
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We start to live more in the moment, more presently.
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We start to live with open, vulnerable hearts, which lifts that fear.
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Nobody has to guess where people are with their connections to each other.
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When that happens, it makes for a smoother transition.
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If we can start that now, maybe in the next few generations, this will be something that's
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no longer a big fear.
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In addition to that, from experiences that you've had, we can learn a lot about the afterlife.
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That's pretty much what this show is about.
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We have people that are witnesses that have actually been there and come back so they
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can talk about it.
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Another way to witness it is with what you do with people that are in that stage telling
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you what's going on and what's happening.
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That's what I would love to get into today.
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Can you start off with just, I don't know, give me an example or two of somebody that
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was real special that you've worked with and what kind of experience they had and what
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kind you had?
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Sure.
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First of all, people who experience near-death experiences, those NDE-ers, they are some
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of our greatest teachers.
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The more that we can hear from them and the more that we can take the lessons from their
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experiences with us, the more we can have an easier rest of our physical lives.
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I love that this show represents so many teachers.
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My experience, like you mentioned earlier, I have not had an NDE, but I do have the SDE's,
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the shared-death experiences.
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It's really hard for me to pick which one to choose from.
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I've had so many, but I think that's also why I gravitate towards being a death doula
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is because this is one of the special gifts that I get to experience at many of my patients'
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bedside.
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One of them, though, would be someone I'll call Sister Bernadette, and she was a Catholic
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nun, and she had a very strict set of religious beliefs.
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Some of that got challenged towards the end when she started experiencing loved ones at
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her bedside.
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She was a nurse in a hospital for most of her work, so she had a lot of support system
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in the hospital.
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As she was dying, I was one of her volunteers, and I would go sit with her.
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I guess in the Catholic faith, you are not supposed to commune with the dead.
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I explained to her that I thought she was communing with the dead all the time when
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she was talking to saints and Jesus and God and Mother Mary, and she corrected me.
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She goes, no, I pray to them.
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I don't commune with them.
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So when her friend who had already passed away, Sister Mary Catherine, was showing up at her
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bedside, she was really worried about communing with the dead.
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Yeah, so here's Sister Mary Catherine, also a Catholic person in her physical life, and
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here they were having conversations.
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So she was worried to even confess that to a priest who she was fearful of that, of
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judgment, because she had been communing with the dead.
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And this was something that we kind of navigated towards her end of life.
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It didn't make her question the structure of her religion that she really, really enjoyed,
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but it did make her question some of the small things like why is it wrong for me to commune
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with Sister Mary Catherine?
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Sister Mary Catherine was making her feel comforted and loved, and it made her feel
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a little more peaceful.
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And it also, she had this knowing that, well, my time is close to Sister Mary Catherine's
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here, and that made her feel a little bit like she wasn't alone.
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So having people see angels and beings of light and even deceased loved ones at their
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bedside, especially when they're still communicating with people in our physical reality with lucidity,
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is I think very, very telling that it doesn't end with our physical life.
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Some of the shared death experiences, I might have, that was just one of talking about how
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we see them at our bedside.
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Can we talk more about that before you move on to another one?
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Who else did she see?
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And just so that she's not getting in trouble, I won't use the word commune.
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How about communicate with?
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Sure, sure.
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That was her word, of course.
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So Sister Mary Catherine was very special because Sister, I mean, I'm sorry, Sister
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Bernadette was very special because while she was seeing Sister Mary Catherine, that
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was the one she was most worried about.
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Seeing the angelics, like what she described as very, very tall, protective beings of light
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that would be like in the corner of her hospital room, that she didn't feel scared from.
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She felt like everything was okay when they were near, but she wasn't holding conversations
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with them per se.
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She was really holding conversations with Sister Mary Catherine, and that was what was
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really bothering her, even though she didn't want to stop having those conversations.
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The angelic beings in the corners of her hospital room really made her feel protected, and she
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was able to, it just made her feel like she was a good person, that in her faith and angels
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are good positive signs, and so that she was okay with.
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So how long before death was this?
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Like the day of, the week of?
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The week of.
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The week of, okay.
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The week of.
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I had another patient though who was seeing his deceased wife for a year before he transitioned.
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Wow.
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Was he sick?
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Was he sort of on the downhill slide that whole year?
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He was on hospice for five years, and I was his volunteer for four.
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So he was always on a downhill slide.
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He just kept pulling through.
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He was awesome.
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How vivid were these things?
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Let's talk, let's shift over to this guy now.
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If you're allowed to use his name, tell me his name, and if not, make one up.
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I call him Mr. Arjuna.
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Okay.
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So he's sick, he's on hospice.
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What kind of conversations or visitations was he having with his wife?
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What was going on?
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Okay.
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So he is pretty special.
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He's one of my favorite patients, and he had many, many experiences that were almost
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like I can't even explain how he would have these experiences, but they're fantastic.
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So his wife was showing up for about a year before he transitioned.
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He was Hindu, and so that went against his religious belief because by then his wife
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had died 30 years before him, and she should have already, according to his faith, been
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reincarnated.
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So and he wanted her to be, he wanted her to be happy and reincarnated.
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So when she started showing up the year of his death, it was distressing at first because
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it went against his faith.
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And so we kind of worked through that.
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We talked about the illusions of death, and we talked about what if certain rules of his
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religion were metaphorical, and we kind of negotiated through his faith in order for him
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to feel comfortable with his wife being at his bedside.
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And she was there almost every single day for a year, which was unheard of by any of
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my other experiences.
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What was she doing?
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Just hanging out or giving him advice or saying, Hey, come on with me.
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What was going on?
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No, she wasn't saying, come on with me.
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In fact, when I would ask Mr. Arjuna about the messages his wife was sharing, he said
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that she just comes in and just sits with him.
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So he's not lonely.
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She's not even sharing.
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Now the words he was getting from people were other beings of light.
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So he was also seeing beings of light, but that became more in the last four months of
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his life or so.
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So while the wife had been there just offering comfort with her presence, these beings of
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light were showing up.
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And he told me that they hid themselves from the staff of the nursing home because they
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weren't ready to see them and they were only there for him.
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And they would tell him things like that there was nothing to fear.
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And I remember him telling me that he was telling them, I'm going to be going home.
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I'm going to work on becoming mobile again.
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And they would tell him, you are coming home.
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And at first he took that as back to his house.
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But after a couple of months, he started realizing that home meant somewhere else and that he
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started becoming more and more okay with that.
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In one experience, he was telling me that these beings of light, one specific female
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being of light that he perceived as female, made him feel so safe and so filled with love
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that he was ready to go.
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And he wanted to go with her.
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And she was telling him, not quite yet.
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I guess that they were there to sort of, he had so much fear around dying and was really
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caught up in his faith and the contradictions that he was experiencing around his faith
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that I think part of them being there was to gradually allow him to process this information
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so that the process would be less distressing for him.
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That's just my own thought on that.
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That makes sense.
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Now there's some skeptics out there that are going to hear some of this and say, oh, well,
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they were probably on some sort of medication or whatever, chemical reactions through the
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death process or something like that.
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What makes you personally believe that these were real versus just hallucinations?
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So that's where the shared death experiences come in.
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So my experiences would be validated based on what they were saying.
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So one time I walked into a room as he was getting closer to his final days and I could
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see standing in the corner a being and sometimes I do see being.
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So it wasn't like a big surprise, but I was like, oh, we're getting close.
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It was just sort of like, okay, that was a reminder for me.
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And when I sat beside him, he started describing the being and it was the same being that I
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was seeing.
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So I don't want to tell him like, oh, I'm seeing a being in the corner like nothing
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like that.
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I don't want to lead the conversation in any way, but I journal all of these experiences.
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So for me, it was like a little science experiment.
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Here I am seeing a being.
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Whenever he decided to share that he was also seeing the being and he described what the
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being was looking like, I was just like, wow, that's my validation.
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I'm actually seeing the same thing.
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That is cool.
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It is cool.
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That is really cool.
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So we've had a hospice nurse on this show and she told me a lot of some of the things you
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have, but she didn't see any of the beings that the patients were seeing.
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Has this happened to you more than once?
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Absolutely.
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It's oftentimes though, I'll sit in the car before going in to see my patient and I'll
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do a little meditation and I kind of center myself and I pray and I'll just say, okay,
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you know, highest and greatest good and I want to be aware, teach me something here, you
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know, whatever it is that I'm setting my intentions for.
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So I do center myself before going in and I find that on the days that I do that with
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a little more, you know, time and a little more processing it through before I go in,
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I have stronger experiences.
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So that's part of it with me.
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If I'm just going in because I promised I'd be there at three and I'm grabbing a cup of
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coffee and I'm running in, it's difficult for me to have those experiences.
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But when I take a little time and calm myself, those experiences unfold naturally.
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Okay.
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The next question, I'm sure there's no simple answer to, but what advice can you give to
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loved ones of someone who is very close to transitioning?
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I like your word so that maybe they can have that kind of experience too.
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Very similar to what I do.
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I would say first the belief that it is possible really helps in having that experience.
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And then I would say, quieting your mind a little bit and being open to whatever comes
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through and not dismissing it.
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Sometimes the energy can be so subtle that it's easy to dismiss or, you know, you brush
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it off as, oh, it might have been this or oh, it might have been that.
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Just like, that's what skeptics do.
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And that's what's so great.
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I'm very skeptical myself.
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I need it to be hardcore for me to really believe it.
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Over time though, the more you practice reflecting inward and going inward and centering yourself
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and practicing being open to that, the more you start to realize those subtle things aren't
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something as easily dismissed anymore, your discernment strengthens.
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So if I met a family member who was about to lose a loved one, I would suggest a little
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bit of meditation or a little bit of going inward and just reflecting and being open
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and asking for such an experience.
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That's where I would start.
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And I have had other people come to me and say that they had a, oh, I experienced this
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and I would be like, yes, that was the start of a shared death experience.
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So with some of my patients who I'm having a shared death experience with, I'm actually
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watching them be met by another loved one in spirit and watching them and going for a
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short way into that experience with them.
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But I can only go so far before they like shut me out.
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So.
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Well, yeah, you may not be able to come back.
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So that's right.
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That's wise.
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Just a quick break to recognize this episode's sponsor, Mochi Health.
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It'll be in the show notes.
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Now back to our guest.
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Give me a specific example about one of those.
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Okay, well, I will share that with almost all of them.
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And that's my experience so far that can change, of course, there is a welcome party of some
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sort.
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There is a gathering of loved ones.
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These can range from small little picnics to big elaborate, you know, ballroom parties
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or little cottages.
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It's always different.
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It seems one of them.
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I was sitting with a, let me see which one I want to pick.
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Well, let's pick one close to me, my grandmother.
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I was sitting with my grandmother, also Helen.
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She was transitioning a little slower than we would have liked.
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But I could see a, this was an unusual one, a delivery room.
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And I thought this was sort of interesting because oftentimes whenever I have these shared
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death experiences, I am aware that I'm sitting in the physical space with that person.
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It's then sort of like an overlay comes in and I'm in two worlds at once.
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And just to touch on that for a second, it would be as if I asked you to close your eyes
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and imagine the beach.
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And I asked you to feel the sand beneath your toes, feel the waves lapping up on your feet,
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hear the sound of the seagull crying.
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And at the same time, you're aware of sitting in that big comfy chair that you're in.
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You're in two worlds at once.
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So sometimes that other world feels almost like a memory or an imagination, but it's
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like overlay on top of your, your own physical reality.
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So that's how I, I interpret it when these shared death experiences happen.
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So while I'm sitting bedside with my grandmother, I am suddenly aware that the room that we
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are in sort of overlays or transforms into a hospital delivery room, which was my grandfather
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sitting outside the delivery room.
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He was dressed in a tire from like the 1960s.
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That's before my time.
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And yet I knew it was him.
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He looked so young and healthy.
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And I'd never seen him look that way before, but I knew it was him.
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And he was waiting outside a delivery room, which is, I guess appropriate for the time
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in which they lived.
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I guess dads weren't in the room.
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He walked down the hallway and opened up another door where I saw so many people gathered in
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this bright white room holding gifts, holding celebratory items like balloons and flowers.
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And he told them it's time.
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I guess he walked, they all waited in with like, I could just feel the anticipation, the
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excitement.
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And when I heard it's time, I opened my eyes and looked at my grandmother and she had moved
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into the actively dying phase.
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I got up from where I was in my physical room, which was a guest room of my cousin's house.
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And I went and gathered everybody and said it's time only because my grandfather said,
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so who's already in the spirit world?
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But I knew he was going to be the person coming to collect her.
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So we all got around her.
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We all told her sweet things, told her it was okay to go.
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And as I closed my eyes again, and as the room turned back into a hospital room, my grandmother
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was reuniting with my grandfather and heading down the hallway to that waiting party.
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Now, while I can't prove it because I don't have a near death experience where my grandmother
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can come back and say, yes, that happened.
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The fact that I'm sharing in that experience is just another layer of validation to support
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these near death experiences that you air on your podcast here.
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The unusual thing about some of these is while I may have expected my grandfather to be the
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one who ushers in my grandmother, when my grandfather transitioned, the two people that
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I saw coming for him were not the people I would have expected.
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So that was another little bit of support.
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I would have expected when my grandfather died that the children he had lost, my uncles
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who I was close to maybe would be coming to greet him.
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But instead it was his father whom I never met, never met him in my life, and a great
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uncle who I met maybe twice as a little, little girl.
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But it's those kinds of things that kind of validate that, that I'm not creating it.
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If I were creating it and making it up, I would choose his sons, the uncles I was close
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to, of course they're going to be coming to get him.
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But no, that was not the case.
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So it's small little details like that, that when I recognize, you know, this is something
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that can be supported as not being created.
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These are people I don't know that are coming to meet my loved ones.
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Yeah.
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So did you recognize that?
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What was that?
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Your great grandfather?
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How did you know who he was?
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I don't, that's what's so crazy.
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I knew it was him.
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Like, it's not that he looked like his physical self, in fact, he looked like a being of light
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actually.
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And yet I had this deep inner knowing that it was him.
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I could not be there when my grandfather transitioned physically.
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So I had set up a little kind of vigil in a quiet room in my house in Texas while he
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was in Arizona.
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My mother was there with him and my sister and his father.
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So they didn't know that I was having this experience, right?
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But I imagined my grandfather being my great grandfather, I guess, reaching down to help
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my grandfather out of his body.
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And they were both military men.
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And so it felt really formal, sort of like, you know, like a salute sort of thing happening
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and an embrace of love sort of happened.
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It was all this kind of moment of recognizing the military aspect.
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My mother tells me later that my grandfather was saying as he was dying and still in his
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body, physical body, was saying, yes, sir, yes, sir, sort of how you would, how he would
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talk to his father, very, very respectful and very military style.
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So that was happening physically while I was in Texas imagining this other world where
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the military aspect was being honored.
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And so was the respect as his father came to get him.
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So I've had some other people also share with me that they were in some place far away and
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had a shared death experience.
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I can think of a couple that said that grandfather or whoever it was came to them at the foot
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of their bed and, you know, kind of a wave or something like that.
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And they didn't even know that person had passed on yet.
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And then they got a phone call an hour later or whatever.
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So can you talk about that?
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You don't have to be in the same room to have a shared death experience.
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Actually, you reminded me of another one.
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So no, when I was, when my grandfather was dying, he was in, you know, Arizona, Bullhead
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City, and I was in Austin, Texas.
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And so time and space did not seem to matter in that moment.
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I was still heart connected to that person.
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And it's been my experience that other loved ones can have these experiences and you don't
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have to be right at their bedside to have them.
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My other grandfather transitioned years ago and my son was only four and my husband traveled
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a lot.
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And so I was always home alone and I would set the alarm and I would hear every noise
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when my husband was gone in the house.
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And I would let my son sleep in our bed with us and it was me downstairs.
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Well, I'm turning off all the lights.
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He's, it was late.
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It was after he was almost midnight.
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And I just had set the alarm and my son says, mom, there's a man in our room.
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Well, I panic because I'm thinking I just set the alarm with a, with, you know, someone
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in the house.
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And I was just like, where, where's the man?
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You know, and he's like standing over there by the windows.
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He's wearing a gray suit and he described what he looked like.
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And then he kind of curled up next to me and he took my hand and he laid it on my heart
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with his hand on top and he said, but don't worry, mama, everything's going to be all
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right.
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And I was just like, oh, okay.
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Well, there was no man in the room.
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I didn't know what my son was experiencing.
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We know we shut off the light and we go to bed.
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I get a call the next morning from my dad who said your grandfather passed away last night
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just after midnight.
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And I was like, really?
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That's crazy.
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Ty just had this amazing experience last night where he was describing someone who looked
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like grand bob and my dad kind of choked up on the phone and he didn't answer right away.
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I thought maybe he had a disconnection.
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We'd hung up on each other.
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And he's like, last night before grand bob died, I went in and visited him and I took
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his hand and placed it on his heart and I put my hand on top and I said, don't worry,
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daddy, everything's going to be all right.
469
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:04,840
So my son did the exact same thing to me that my dad did to his transitioning father.
470
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,320
That's a beautiful example of that.
471
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,400
That is, and so much that we don't understand, but I love hearing about it.
472
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:12,400
Okay.
473
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,800
Something slightly a little change on our topic here.
474
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:22,240
Again, that I've heard from hospice nurses and I'd like to see if you have experienced
475
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:23,240
this.
476
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,120
This is less of a spiritual, more of a physical thing.
477
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:32,160
And that is something that's referred to as the surge or I've heard some other terms for
478
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:39,120
it where some people who are sick enough, old enough, whatever, that maybe they've been
479
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:45,280
unconscious or can't even move out of bed or anything for a long time.
480
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:51,360
All of a sudden they're awake, they're alert and family members are going, they're getting
481
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:52,960
better.
482
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,040
But then, but then they transition a few hours later.
483
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,120
Have you witnessed that as well?
484
00:29:58,120 --> 00:29:59,720
Many, many times.
485
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:01,520
And sitting with the family, you're right.
486
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,160
They always are like, they're getting better.
487
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,600
This is, I think we're on the upswing, things are going to get better.
488
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,080
They'll be around for the holidays, things like that.
489
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:13,760
And while you want that hope for them, they may not transition hours later, but sometimes
490
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:15,920
even up to two days later.
491
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,120
And you're just like, wow, they ate something.
492
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,840
They haven't been eating anything and they drank something and you're, you, they're like,
493
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,160
oh, if we could just get them more food for more energy.
494
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:30,120
I now, I didn't use to, but now I will sit with the family and say this is an expected
495
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:31,120
part.
496
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:32,440
It means it's close now.
497
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:39,320
It means we are within 48 hours usually of the actual transition and they have it, they
498
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:44,720
take it kind of hard because they hadn't seen their family member quite alive like that
499
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:46,240
in so long.
500
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,880
So you popped their bubble, but I do.
501
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:54,200
But it's part of your job to be honest and to let them know what's going on.
502
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,520
So it totally makes sense that you would do that.
503
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,640
Well I try to encourage them to say what they need to say while their loved one has these
504
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:02,640
moments of lucidity.
505
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:03,640
Right.
506
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,840
This is an opportunity for closure.
507
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:07,320
This is going to be temporary.
508
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,280
So take advantage of this time.
509
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:10,280
Absolutely.
510
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,760
And it's a gift that you get to have this time because not everyone has that surge,
511
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:16,760
but many of them do.
512
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:18,080
Okay.
513
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:23,400
Before I get on to another topic, do you have any other specific examples, maybe one or
514
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,640
two more that you'd like to talk to us about?
515
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:31,640
Whether you witnessed the being in the room or not, it doesn't matter, but.
516
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,760
I have one patient who I will call Mrs. Wilma.
517
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:40,560
And Mrs. Wilma, this is sort of interesting and I think that it's important to kind of
518
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,720
talk about so it eases fears around death a little bit.
519
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,120
I have other examples too, but I'll start with Mrs. Wilma.
520
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:52,280
Mrs. Wilma showed up outside her body before she took her last breath.
521
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,920
Often times we think that we have to be there for that last breath.
522
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,200
That's when the soul leaves the body.
523
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,480
But it's been my experience and I'm still working it out and journaling these experiences
524
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,080
as they happen and I'm finding out more information on it.
525
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:11,400
It's a work in progress, you know, doing my little experiments, but Mrs. Wilma had about
526
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,840
an hour left before she took her last breath.
527
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:19,560
And during that time she had stepped out of her body and presented herself as like a child
528
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,920
of maybe 10 or 12 years old.
529
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:28,960
And she had, or she took the opportunity to interact with me and share some teachings
530
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:34,480
from her life and some greater wisdom that she wanted to share.
531
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:40,520
But I'm thinking, why is Mrs. Wilma, she's struggling to take those final breaths.
532
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:45,560
When we look at a body doing that, we think that there are loved one is suffering.
533
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,160
They're struggling to breathe.
534
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:52,640
There's this real hard, raspy breath that's happening and it can be kind of scary and
535
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,800
unsettling to watch.
536
00:32:54,800 --> 00:33:02,680
But kind of like a car that we jump into a vehicle and we, like our bodies, we drive
537
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,400
it around for a little while.
538
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,960
We can take it really fast or we can take it really slow.
539
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,880
We can take it in for maintenance or we can run it into the ground, however we want to
540
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:13,040
use our vehicle.
541
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,920
But when it starts to kind of putter out, we don't have to stay in until it stops.
542
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:23,920
We can actually hop out of our vehicle before it comes to a full stop and watch it coast.
543
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,600
And I think that's what a lot of our loved ones are doing.
544
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:28,680
They don't go far.
545
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,160
They're actually kind of right there.
546
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:36,440
And it almost feels otherworldly when they're standing there, but they're not suffering.
547
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,720
The physical body is going through the process of shutting down.
548
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:40,720
That's natural.
549
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:42,740
It's the earthly physical body.
550
00:33:42,740 --> 00:33:48,760
But who they are, their soul or their spirit, the part that their consciousness is standing
551
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,880
just outside that physical body and they're not suffering the way we perceive it to be
552
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:55,800
much of the time.
553
00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:01,800
So yes, while I have seen, for example, Mrs. Wilma struggling to breathe, she wasn't struggling
554
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,480
and I could see her and she was interacting with me and she was teaching me things before
555
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:10,080
she fully was someone came and got her from the other side.
556
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,240
I think it's important to remember that when you're sitting with a loved one and you're
557
00:34:13,240 --> 00:34:15,320
thinking, oh my gosh, it was horrible.
558
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,320
Look at what they're going through.
559
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:22,000
Maybe turn inward and reflect and realize that they're probably not suffering the way we
560
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,200
are perceiving because they're right there with us.
561
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:26,920
That's good to hear.
562
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:28,280
You mentioned journaling.
563
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,640
You've put all this stuff into a book, right?
564
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:31,640
Yes.
565
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:32,720
What's it called?
566
00:34:32,720 --> 00:34:35,240
Go ahead, shameless plug time.
567
00:34:35,240 --> 00:34:36,240
Shameless plug.
568
00:34:36,240 --> 00:34:39,840
It's called healing whispers from spirit guides, bridging the gap between life and the
569
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,080
afterlife with the death doula's wisdom.
570
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,000
That's a long title, by the way.
571
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,320
Well, healing whispers from spirit guides and the rest is like the subtitle.
572
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:50,920
We'll have that in the show notes.
573
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:51,920
People can find it.
574
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:53,920
They can find you in your website too.
575
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:54,920
There.
576
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:55,920
Yes.
577
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:56,920
Yes.
578
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,880
I'll answer any questions or if anyone has interest in becoming a death doula themselves.
579
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,200
I've been journaling for almost 10 years the experiences at the bedside of patients
580
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:11,720
and I selected my favorite stories and incorporated them into the book and the lessons I've learned
581
00:35:11,720 --> 00:35:12,720
from them.
582
00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:15,080
Is there some kind of death doula school?
583
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,080
How do you learn how to do this?
584
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:23,120
There are death doula schools, but first I want to say I did get certified as a death
585
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:24,120
doula.
586
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,680
This is not something that's covered by insurance.
587
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,320
There aren't any set parameters like I'm going to be an English major.
588
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,480
Here are the things you have to do as an English major.
589
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,180
There are no set parameters to be a death doula.
590
00:35:35,180 --> 00:35:38,440
The certification programs that are out there are helpful.
591
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,520
They supply you with a lot of resources and tools so that you can more gracefully work
592
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,120
with people who are dying.
593
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:49,920
I think some people and most people actually have that sort of in them innately the ability
594
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,800
to sit with a person and have reverence for what they're going through and to just be
595
00:35:54,800 --> 00:36:01,200
a listening ear for the family as they grieve and to not try to fix anything and to just
596
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:02,800
be present with them.
597
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:04,840
That's really what it comes down to.
598
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,960
I incorporate my own experiences that I'm having with spirit and if the family is open
599
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:14,280
to that, then I share those experiences as a way of jump-starting the healing process
600
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:15,280
through their grief.
601
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,400
But it is not necessary.
602
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,160
You don't have to have spiritual experiences to be a death doula.
603
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:26,720
But being present and sitting with your loved one or even the stranger, I think anyone can
604
00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:27,720
do it.
605
00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:31,080
I think a lot of people who have fear around death, it's a really quick way to get over
606
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,320
your fear around death.
607
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,000
Could the fear be replaced with this is a beautiful experience?
608
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:38,000
Absolutely.
609
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:39,520
It has been for me.
610
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,240
You must have to learn about a lot of different religions.
611
00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:45,520
Actually, I have a master's in world religions.
612
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:46,520
There you go.
613
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:47,520
I knew it.
614
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:48,520
It worked out for me.
615
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:49,520
Okay.
616
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,920
I did not know that ahead of time.
617
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,880
I just totally lucked out on that one.
618
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:55,880
Yes.
619
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:57,440
Well, and you know what?
620
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:02,300
You don't have to know a lot about because if you've got an iPhone, you've got anything
621
00:37:02,300 --> 00:37:05,600
you want to know about any religion right at your fingertips.
622
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:11,800
You don't have to unless you're wanting to discuss philosophy or religious beliefs with
623
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:12,800
your patient.
624
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:13,800
And sometimes they do.
625
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,360
You really just have to listen and be respectful of what their beliefs are.
626
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,440
Some of my longer term patients though do say, well, what do you believe?
627
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,840
And I'm like, well, do you really want to know?
628
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,200
And then we'll get into a little bit of a heated debate.
629
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,120
And let me tell you that people who are dying are some of the best people to debate with.
630
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:32,640
They're so into it.
631
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:38,240
And they're also open to other ideas because as their time draws near, suddenly they start
632
00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:43,080
to be open to what else, you know, was their belief wrong?
633
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:44,520
That's a little bit of fear around death.
634
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,280
They start to question that.
635
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,240
So let's remove that.
636
00:37:48,240 --> 00:37:54,040
If this is not too personal, let me ask you, how have these experiences affected your
637
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:55,760
belief?
638
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,000
Like did you believe in God before?
639
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,880
Do you now?
640
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:02,240
Et cetera.
641
00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:06,280
I always believed in a higher power of some sort.
642
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:10,000
You know, I think studying world religions, you start to question, well, which one's
643
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:11,000
right?
644
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:12,600
That's part of the reason why I went into studying it.
645
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:13,600
Which one's right?
646
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,120
The oldest one's got to be the right one.
647
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:19,200
You know, when you realize, when you start reading more and more into it, you start to
648
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:24,160
really question, well, just everything about religion, quite frankly.
649
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:28,560
But I've always believed in a higher power, but I've always had connection to spirit.
650
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,400
I've always had spiritual experiences for as long as I can remember.
651
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,000
So that was never something I questioned.
652
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:41,080
Call it God, call it source, call it spirit, call it all that is.
653
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:42,080
It doesn't really matter.
654
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:43,280
Those are vocabulary words.
655
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:48,160
In the second we try to put a word to God, we limit it.
656
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,480
So yes, I believe in God.
657
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:51,840
I believe in a higher power.
658
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:57,360
I believe in something else outside what we can see with the physical rods and cones of
659
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:58,840
our eyes.
660
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:04,080
Most people that have had a near-death experience tell me they have no fear of death whatsoever
661
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:05,080
now.
662
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,080
How about you?
663
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:08,520
I do not fear death.
664
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:09,520
No.
665
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:14,880
In fact, I talk to spirit or God all the time and I'll say, all right, guys, this is what
666
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,200
I want for when I go.
667
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,840
You know, I'm making requests early.
668
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:28,440
But I guess the little bit of fear that I have around the dying process is how my loved
669
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,200
ones might, the grief they're going to feel.
670
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:39,200
And I would like to spend some time alleviating their grief and fears around my death.
671
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,400
But me, myself, I'm okay with it.
672
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:42,400
Okay.
673
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:43,400
Last thing.
674
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:51,960
There's somebody listening today who has a loved one that is going to be transitioning
675
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,240
soon.
676
00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:57,480
Can you give them just some kind of a message of hope?
677
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:02,480
A message of hope may be a little bit of direction, in fact.
678
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:03,480
Absolutely.
679
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:11,240
For anyone who has a loved one about to transition, I would suggest finding closure while you
680
00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:18,220
still can to expedite your own grief and healing process by saying, I love you by offering
681
00:40:18,220 --> 00:40:25,720
forgiveness if you need to, by expressing yourself kindly with what you need to say,
682
00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:28,200
even if it's a hard topic.
683
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:35,880
I would suggest turning inward, finding silence at home or right before bed or wherever you
684
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:44,960
can find that silence and set the intention or pray to meet with that loved one as they
685
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,960
transition or after they transition.
686
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:58,840
I would ask them or God or source for a sign that your experience can be validated in some
687
00:40:58,840 --> 00:40:59,840
way.
688
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:06,360
I would be open to the universe for whatever comes through, and I would also journal it
689
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:07,920
and write it down.
690
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:13,680
I think that that is one of the things that's so important because having one experience
691
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:17,760
that is spiritually transformative means there are more coming down the pipe.
692
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:22,080
You definitely want to journal all those that you can and start with this one.
693
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,080
That's what I would say.
694
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,480
Gretchen Jones, thank you so much for being with me today.
695
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,600
I look at you and what I see is empathy.
696
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:36,760
You are oozing with empathy and that is a great character trait to have.
697
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:38,760
Thank you.
698
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,560
Thanks again for listening and sharing this podcast.
699
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:47,640
Don't forget to hit the follow or subscribe button and sign up for our newsletter at roundtriptest.com.
700
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:51,920
If you want to share your near-death experience or if you have questions or comments about
701
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:56,240
the show, send an email to eric at roundtriptest.com.
702
00:41:56,240 --> 00:42:00,920
Until then, I wish you everything good that you're looking for in this life and the next.
