Transcript
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From the time that they pronounced me deaf was a good 45 minutes.
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They cut my clothes and then they paddled my heart, my heart had stopped.
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And I could see people screaming and crying, but I didn't realize that was actually my
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physical body because I was somewhere else.
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The only thing that I could feel, if you could imagine, absolute love and peace, there wasn't
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anything else to be felt.
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I was greeted by people I'd known in the past.
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I'm back home again.
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Incredibly safe and felt at home.
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Welcome to Round Trip Death, everybody, and welcome to our special guest.
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We're really happy to have Ralph Jensen with us today.
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How are you, Ralph?
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Great.
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Glad to be here.
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Good.
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It's so good to have you here.
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For our listeners, I just want you to know, wow, is what you're going to be saying halfway
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through this and at the end, and you're going to want to share this with friends because
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the things that Ralph experienced during his NDE are really amazing and really can grow
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your faith.
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So with that, before we jump into it, Ralph, can you just tell us a little bit about you?
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Okay.
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I was born.
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Would you like to know where I was born?
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Congratulations.
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I was born in a town called Logan, but I didn't live there, Logan, Utah.
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I lived in a farm outside in the valley.
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So I learned to melt cows when I was five, and we were working on the farm and milking
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cows since I'd been before preschool even.
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And then when I was 14, my dad and our family, we all moved to Seattle because we lived off
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our farm, but we didn't pay our other bills off our farm.
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My dad was a builder because all the farming and ranching that he did before was gone by
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the time I got there.
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So we moved to Seattle for him to build.
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So I lived in Seattle from ninth grade, was 14, until after I got married in 1975.
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And then my wife and I moved to Salt Lake City as an answer to prayers.
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I'm the father of nine children.
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We had nine in 12 years.
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Wow.
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So by the time my oldest was 12, we had number nine, and my wife was 34, and I was 36.
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Double wow.
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And this isn't the wow part I was alluding to.
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And then we lived mostly in the valley around Salt Lake.
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And for a year, we moved back to Washington, lived in St. Homish, and we came back when
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we had five children at the time.
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And then in January of 1999, my youngest was 10, my oldest is 22, she was married, and
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she was three months away from our first grandchild.
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My wife took my 13-year-old to the doctor and on the way home, a man ran a red light
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and struck her on her side, and she didn't survive the accident.
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So my daughter was beat up pretty good, but she lived.
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And so at the age of 46, I had eight children at home, five teenagers, 10-year-old, up to
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a 20, and that made life a little different.
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And then later, after a grandchild came and other time, I married my son-in-law's mother,
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and she has three boys, one married to my daughter and two others.
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And so we have 12 children, eight boys, four girls, and 35 grandchildren.
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And they live from Florida to Oregon, West Virginia, Texas, and around in the valley
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here.
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So we don't get to see all of them all the time, but we see several.
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And since my heart problem is a hereditary problem, my brothers all have the problem,
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and three of my children do.
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One of them at the age of 41 in April of 2019, he died from heart trouble.
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He had four children.
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He was in their force.
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This hereditary heart thing is not that great.
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So he's gone, so we still have 11 of them left.
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My wife and I just live here in Midvale.
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Yeah, that's awesome.
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That's amazing, and congratulations, all those grandchildren.
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The oldest one that was born in April of 1999, she is married, and she's almost 25.
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Her younger brother's married, so we have two married grandchildren.
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So you're going to have greats pretty soon.
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Well, we're hoping so.
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I shouldn't say pretty soon.
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At some point, you're going to have greats.
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I don't want to put pressure on them.
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Yeah, I don't know their schedule.
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My wife and I plan to have 15 children, so we wouldn't limit the Lord, and we only got
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nine.
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Only.
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Okay.
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All right, speaking of heart problems, and you don't have to give us all the medical
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details, but that's what led up to your near-death experience back in February of 2004.
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Can you tell me what was happening that day?
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Were you feeling sick, or did this come right out of the blue?
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No, I was feeling just fine.
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We had gone out with our son that evening, and we got home around an old little after
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nine.
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It happened to be on a Thursday.
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This was Thursday night.
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We went to bed around 11.30.
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Now at midnight, it turns into Friday the 13th, and so here on Friday the 13th, I woke
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up.
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My chest was hurting, and I woke up and looked at the clock, and it said 3.04.
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So it was 3.04 a.m.
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I don't feel so good, so I got up and I went into the bathroom.
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We were living in a small apartment.
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There's only 800 square foot, but it was a two-bedroom, two bath with a little kitchen
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and living room, and we had just lost a business in Zion, so we finally got us a little apartment
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to live.
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We were homeless, and three and a half months after we moved into that apartment, after bouncing
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around for six months, I had this happen.
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At the time, I only had two of our children left, the two youngest, Lisa and Michael.
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I go in the bathroom, and I guess I made too much noise, and my wife wondered why I got
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up.
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She's a light sleeper.
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She came in, and she says, what's the matter with you?
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My chest hurts.
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She's as sore as mine as it ended up she had pneumonia.
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She had pneumonia while I had heart attack, but I wasn't sure if it was going to be a
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heart attack.
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I mean, I wasn't thinking about that.
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I thought, well, maybe if I go lay down, I was having problems breathing.
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I stacked up a bunch of pillows against the headboard, and I was leaning there on the
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pillows, and things started to get a little rough, and she says, what do you want me to
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do?
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I said, I don't know.
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Call the hospital.
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See what they say.
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So she calls the hospital.
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They say, well, call 911.
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I don't want to bother anybody at three o'clock anymore.
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So finally, it was starting to get really painful, and our cell phone happened to be
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a little cell we finally got that it wasn't that great, and then the building we were
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in was concrete brick, so the signal wouldn't come through.
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So you had to lean against the window to get the signal.
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So she's in the bathroom, and I can see her from where I'm laying in the bed through the
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door, and she's leaning against the window with the phone, and if she stands up even,
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she'll lose the call.
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So she has to stay leaning on the window to keep a call.
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So now she's about 15, 20 feet away from me, maybe 15 feet or so, and I'm laying there.
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When things got pretty rough and the pain was getting pretty great, I can handle pain
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quite well, have high pain tolerance, that's part of the reason why she was not knowing
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what to do.
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And I said, okay, get Michael up, get him to go across the street, get Brother Altson
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for a blessing, and call 911 and hurry.
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So she calls 911.
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Meantime, Spencer Altson comes in, and he's kneeling next to me, and my son is standing
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there, and my daughter took our dog into the bedroom away from all of this to keep him
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away from the paramedics as well.
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So now I'm laying there, and I'm kind of screaming, help me, please help me.
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And she's on the call, and she's, she'd ask a question, they'd ask her, and then Spencer
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would haul her back the answer, and they're talking back and forth on what's going on,
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and you know, what color is he?
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Does he hurt?
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Is he perspiring?
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Is he choking?
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And, and then the midst of all this is interesting that before I had actually died, I saw two
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people standing in the foot of my bed, and I thought it was my son Michael, and I thought,
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would you change your clothes for, because he was wearing something dark and these people
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were wearing white.
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And then I, my eyes rolled back in my head, my head rolled back, and I rolled off the
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pillows face down away from Spencer on the bed.
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And as that happened, all the pain went away.
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And I was in excruciating pain, I thought my chest was going to explode.
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So I was holding it to keep it from exploding.
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I thought, not good, not to go from this heavy pain to nothing, not a good sign.
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And I said, I'm dying.
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And that's what I was thinking, and I was turned pray to ask God if I could stay.
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Well, in the meantime, I, I finally go, I can't shut my eyes.
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I can't speak.
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I can't move.
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Why can't I do any of these things?
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Because I didn't know I had already separated from my body.
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And then I noticed a few things different.
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I noticed that I could see through the walls.
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And now in the wintertime, it's dark outside at 3.30 in the morning, and I can see sunlight
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outside.
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I thought, hmm, that's different.
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You're so casual about all this.
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Oh, that's different.
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You're just so calm and casual about the whole thing.
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Well, my wife was not too casual.
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Oh, that's different.
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I must be dying.
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That's different.
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Yeah.
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Sorry, keep going.
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That's fine.
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My wife was screaming on the phone and I just imagine anybody in this kind of a situation
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watching their spouse going through this, you know, you can't come to it.
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You can't come to the person.
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You have to stay on the phone against the window.
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You can't move or you lose it.
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She starts screaming, don't leave me.
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Please don't leave me over and over.
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And then she screams, where are you guys?
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Why is it taking so long to get here?
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Where are you?
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And then she screams, don't leave me.
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It ended up taking like seven minutes for them to come from the first of the call.
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And that seven minutes seemed like seven days, you know.
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So I had these two gentlemen in my room.
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They'd ever turned their head.
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They stood with their arms to the side looking straight forward, which was away from me.
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But you don't need to turn around because when I was up against the wall, if I were
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mortal, I could not see my wife, even if I turned around to look at her.
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And obviously I couldn't see my daughter through the wall, in case the bedroom was just in
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the next room next to the wall.
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But I could see her in there cuddling the dog.
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I could see my wife on the phone screaming.
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I could see these guys and I could see outside daytime.
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Okay?
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This is not normal.
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But I said, if I have to stay, I'll stay.
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But I'd like to go back.
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Would you let me go back?
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Because I didn't want to leave my family without a father.
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Their mother was already gone.
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I didn't want to leave without, you know, leaving them alone.
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And then I didn't want to leave my new wife with 12 children by herself.
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She had been single for quite a while, but she had three children and they had grown
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because her youngest married my oldest.
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They're three years apart, my daughter's older.
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And so her kids were out of the house.
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It was just my kids that were in the house.
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But I didn't want her to be alone with all those kids and I didn't want to leave my family.
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So I said, hey, I want to go back.
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I did not have any desire to stay there.
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But just imagine, I'm someone who has gone through a lot of different trials in my life.
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I've been paralyzed a few times.
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I've had a lot of broken things.
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I've had a lot of sicknesses that weren't that good.
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I'd injured things.
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So I was, I'm in, you know, a constant pain really and things don't feel so good.
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And to be there and have no pain was just amazing.
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Hey, this part was great, you know, but it didn't phase me.
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It didn't help me want to stay there.
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I didn't want to stay.
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I wanted to come back here.
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And the two people standing there, they said, yes, you can go back.
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Now the communication is not the same as we do here with our mouths and talking.
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And some people call it mental telepathy.
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That's the only thing we can think about as mortals to try to understand it.
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But you're actually more talking with your heart than your mind.
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It's incredible kind of a communication that you just know what they think.
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You just know instantly the whole thought process.
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And so the communication between us happened very quickly, but to rehearse it back takes
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time.
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Sure.
240
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,840
Can I interject a couple of questions before we get further down the road?
241
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:58,120
I'm so curious about these two, I think you called them men or people or.
242
00:14:58,120 --> 00:14:59,120
They were men.
243
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:00,120
At the foot of your bed.
244
00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:01,920
Do you have any idea who they were?
245
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:03,760
Did they have names?
246
00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:05,520
Were they ancestors?
247
00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,600
At the time, I did not know who they were at all.
248
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,520
Now my mother, when she was younger, had had a heart attack.
249
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,880
She died, had two men and her mother come to her.
250
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,840
And the two men were like escorts with her mother.
251
00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,760
That with other experiences, I don't need to share them all.
252
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:28,680
I had some knowledge of what happens to people when they die.
253
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,040
And so to me, they were my escorts and I didn't know who they were.
254
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:33,960
I couldn't see their faces.
255
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:35,880
It was just they were there.
256
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:41,000
My escorts, as far as I knew, since they were the ones there and they were the ones I asked.
257
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:45,720
I can tell you more later about at least one of them who he was.
258
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:46,720
Okay.
259
00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:52,680
I know we're going to get to, you had your heart stop more than once this night, right?
260
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:53,680
Yes.
261
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:54,680
Okay.
262
00:15:54,680 --> 00:16:01,320
This first time, did you end up staying there around your body or did you take off down
263
00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:02,920
a tunnel and that kind of thing?
264
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,160
Or was that the second time around?
265
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:06,160
No tunnel.
266
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,400
Just like, just like if you were to get out of bed and walk over to the wall.
267
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,400
I mean, it was not kind of normal, except for I kind of floated there.
268
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,400
But I mean, it's about the same.
269
00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:20,960
But when they told Spencer Olson what to say in a blessing, he grabbed me with one hand,
270
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,520
he put his hand on my head and the other hand.
271
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:28,720
And then with the power of the priesthood and the name of Jesus Christ, he commands me back
272
00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:29,720
to my body.
273
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:35,560
So I called back in myself, which was really kind of fun, getting back in until I could
274
00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:37,480
tell I was completely in.
275
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:38,480
I just got warm.
276
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,960
I get a feel of the warmth coming back in my body.
277
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:46,920
And then as soon as that was complete, the pain hit me like a truck crashing into me.
278
00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,160
And I screamed.
279
00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,440
And I was screaming for joy, even though it was extremely painful.
280
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,840
To go from that bliss to this pain, that was not so fun.
281
00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,600
But that didn't take a long time.
282
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,320
By then, the paramedics had shown up.
283
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,840
They hauled me to the hospital.
284
00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:09,960
And when I got into the hospital, they were working on me for a heart attack.
285
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:14,080
It happened to be a non-survivable, extremely serious heart attack.
286
00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:18,040
What is funny is on the way there, I joked with the paramedics.
287
00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,120
But we get there.
288
00:17:20,120 --> 00:17:25,560
And about an hour and a half later, by then I had my daughter-in-law had come and my wife
289
00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:27,640
had been calling people.
290
00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:28,800
So they were there in the room.
291
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,560
And then I went in cardiac arrest.
292
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:37,120
And my nurse was very large, about 6'4", maybe 280, 300 pounds.
293
00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:44,000
And he jumped on, pounded on my chest, and he busted my whole rib cage, busted my sternum,
294
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,280
crushing my chest into my heart.
295
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,840
And then they shock-paddled me quite a bit.
296
00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,960
While I was there, I didn't watch myself this time.
297
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,040
I go into this empty waiting room.
298
00:17:55,040 --> 00:18:01,400
It seemed like it had confinement, but it also seemed endless.
299
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:07,560
And there was my wife and my parents standing there, looking like they're 25-ish.
300
00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,360
So this is your first wife you're talking about?
301
00:18:10,360 --> 00:18:11,880
My first wife, who had died.
302
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:13,720
That was killed in the car accident.
303
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:14,720
Okay.
304
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:15,720
She came to meet me.
305
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:16,720
Her name's Carol.
306
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:18,440
My wife now is Charlotte.
307
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:19,440
Carol came.
308
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:26,120
She was standing there in a red sweater, and a red calf, down her calf aways skirt with
309
00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:27,800
flowers on it.
310
00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:32,720
My mother was standing there with a full dress, clear down her ankles with royal blue with
311
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,600
big white and colored flowers on it.
312
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,920
My dad had a dark suit, white shirt, and tie, dark tie.
313
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:44,560
And they looked like their wedding picture, kind of, when they were 25, and they got married.
314
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:49,720
It's interesting that after you hadn't seen them for a while, hadn't seen my dad since
315
00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:54,760
February of 1992, hadn't seen my mother since March of 1998.
316
00:18:54,760 --> 00:19:02,640
My wife since January of 1999, and this is 2004, and you might think they would say,
317
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:03,920
Oh, hi, good to see you.
318
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:04,920
Sure.
319
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:05,920
Now they didn't do that.
320
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,480
They just said, You've already got permission to stay.
321
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,040
So what are you doing here?
322
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,960
We have more to get done for the second coming that we have time for.
323
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,880
And all you're doing is getting there away.
324
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,480
So would you go back and do your assignment and let us get on to do ours?
325
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:20,480
Holy cow.
326
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:26,440
You're just all matter of fact business, just get back and you're not staying.
327
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:27,680
So you're just in our way.
328
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,120
Now, if you're staying, this isn't what they said.
329
00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:32,040
But you know, if you're staying, let's get to work.
330
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:33,040
But you're not.
331
00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:34,040
So get out of here.
332
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:35,880
Now, I've got 10 more questions.
333
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,880
The first one is, how did that make you feel?
334
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:40,400
Was it a little crushing?
335
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,680
Well, it's interesting.
336
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,600
It just took me off guard a little bit.
337
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:48,280
I didn't feel terrible.
338
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,000
It just was something I didn't expect, but I'm a stubborn Norwegian.
339
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,480
See, my mother is and so am I.
340
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,160
And I thought, if you're here and I'm here, I'm going to say hello.
341
00:19:58,160 --> 00:19:59,160
Yeah.
342
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:00,400
So I walked over to them.
343
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,960
They were probably 20 feet away from me.
344
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,000
I walked over to them and I gave them hugs and I talked to them.
345
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,480
I find out kind of what their assignments were.
346
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,120
And the whole time they went, go on and tap in there for me.
347
00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:13,880
You about done, you know, get out of here.
348
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:14,880
We're busy.
349
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:21,920
But then the man that gave me permission in my room was standing behind them.
350
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:23,400
He was back a little ways.
351
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:24,400
He's in white.
352
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,960
And I thought, no, my escort's back.
353
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:28,480
What's he here for?
354
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,280
You know, my attention went to him.
355
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,640
I left the attention off my family and they disappeared.
356
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:35,640
I don't know.
357
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:36,920
I never saw him again.
358
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,680
I'm walking back to this guy.
359
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:44,240
Now a little bit of foreign knowledge to what's going to happen next.
360
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:50,800
When I was young growing up and I learned about the spirit world, I learned about how
361
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:55,320
life is an eternal life of man.
362
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,920
I thought, well, if you're an atheist and you don't believe in anything and you die
363
00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:04,680
and now here you are, you're still alive when you think you're dead.
364
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,400
Isn't it kind of obvious that you were wrong?
365
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,920
And then I thought, and then if you meet Christ and you don't believe in him and there he
366
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,960
is, obvious here he is.
367
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,040
But there's a problem with that.
368
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:21,120
If you haven't accepted him as your savior, he's not going to let you know that because
369
00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:25,080
there's agency and he isn't going to mess up your agency.
370
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,480
He's going to have, you have to seek for him first.
371
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,800
And so you're not going to obviously know it's who it is.
372
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:37,960
And so for 25 years, I've been praying, I had been praying, how do you have agency when
373
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:42,320
you get there and you see all this stuff when you didn't believe in any of it?
374
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,120
Well, it doesn't work that way.
375
00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:45,560
You don't get to see everything.
376
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:47,480
You don't get to know it's Christ.
377
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,000
You don't get to know about your pre-mortal existence.
378
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:55,520
You don't get to know about God in heaven if you don't have any knowledge of him or
379
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,040
any want to know about him as a mortal.
380
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:04,560
And so he was answering this prayer in a very different way than I ever expected to have
381
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,040
it answered.
382
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:11,480
And so I start walking back to this man who's standing back there and then the Holy Ghost,
383
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:16,120
which is the only way you can know Jesus as the Lord, is through the Holy Ghost, not through
384
00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:20,720
meeting him or everybody that met him in mortal life would know who he was.
385
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:21,720
They meet him.
386
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,720
They don't know who he is, but he says, my sheep hear my voice.
387
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:26,320
Well, who are my sheep?
388
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,680
My sheep are the ones who have opened their heart to the Holy Ghost to bear witness to
389
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:34,120
them to be able to know that Jesus is the Lord.
390
00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:37,720
The Holy Ghost stands there and he says, that's the Savior.
391
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,280
You know, that's Christ.
392
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,800
Okay, whole thing changes.
393
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,560
It's not just an escort.
394
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,320
He's the Savior.
395
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:52,360
And so I bowed to the ground as quickly as I could get there with two challenges.
396
00:22:52,360 --> 00:22:54,440
One, I couldn't get there fast enough.
397
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,480
And two, I couldn't get deeper than the floor.
398
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,320
He had called me and asked me to come to him.
399
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:02,520
And so I was easy then.
400
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,480
I could stand up, went over to him, gave him a hug.
401
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,480
He's a little taller than I am.
402
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,240
I'm used to be 5'10, but I'm about 5'8 now.
403
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,040
He's more like a 6'2".
404
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,240
He's size and I went to, I hugged him.
405
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:18,240
We parted.
406
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:23,360
We're quite close together, maybe two feet, max.
407
00:23:23,360 --> 00:23:28,160
And I'm looking in his eyes, which I cannot describe to you what that's like.
408
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,240
And he very lovingly asked me a question.
409
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,480
He says, where is your heart?
410
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,280
He's asking me where my values are.
411
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:45,200
And at that instant, my whole life, and I could comprehend my entire life in an instant.
412
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:46,200
It was strange.
413
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:52,320
It's like seeing a movie of your life in almost a second and you understand it all.
414
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,080
And I thought, wow, I am not perfect.
415
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,520
How can I stand here?
416
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,840
Looking into the eyes of Christ and say I'm with you.
417
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,240
So I didn't answer, even though I thought that.
418
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,920
My whole life was that way.
419
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:12,680
But in that instant, every little thing you've done seems huge.
420
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,320
And he didn't demand an answer.
421
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,440
He just smiled.
422
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:22,000
And we went back through time, like Scrooge, seeing his Christmas past, going back to his,
423
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,080
you know, and seeing three-dimensional people there.
424
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:30,280
I could see from the pre-mortally existence him.
425
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,120
So I got to see the Warren Council in heaven.
426
00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:34,360
And then he built the world.
427
00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:37,040
So I got to watch the world get made.
428
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,160
And I got to watch Adam and Eve get put in a garden.
429
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:46,840
And since Jehovah is Christ in the Old Testament, I got to see him interact with all the prophets
430
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:48,360
through the Old Testament.
431
00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:50,560
And then I got to be at his birth.
432
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:56,960
And that was one unique thing that happened because I thought, there's no way I can be
433
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,720
worthy to stand here and watch this birth of the Savior.
434
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,160
And I wanted to leave.
435
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:08,120
I was standing not at all, maybe 25 feet away from Mary and Joseph.
436
00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:11,120
And there was a midwife there.
437
00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:13,040
And I thought, I can't watch this.
438
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:14,280
And so I was going to leave.
439
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,480
And of course, he knows my thoughts.
440
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:21,160
He just reached over and gently took a hold of my arm behind my elbow.
441
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:22,640
You're staying.
442
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:23,640
Okay.
443
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:24,960
You're the boss.
444
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,360
So I stayed.
445
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:31,600
And that happened a few times during this experience.
446
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,400
So I got to be there and the shepherds.
447
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,360
And of course, the wise men didn't show up then.
448
00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:41,480
They came almost three years later.
449
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,520
So he was walking and talking when they were in the house when they came.
450
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,920
Then I got to watch him grow up.
451
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:55,200
Before we move on, and I want to hear all of this detail, can I just clarify a few things
452
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,880
to make sure I understand?
453
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:04,520
So Jesus was one of the two people in white at the foot of your bed.
454
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:05,520
Yes.
455
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:06,520
Okay.
456
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,560
You mentioned that Spencer was told what to say in the blessing.
457
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:11,560
Yes.
458
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,160
Was that from Jesus?
459
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:14,160
Yes.
460
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:15,160
Okay.
461
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:22,480
I also thought it very interesting that when you met your first wife and your mother and
462
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:28,560
father that they were wearing colored clothes that sound kind of like regular earthly clothes.
463
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:29,560
Yes.
464
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,720
Kind of like your best Sunday order meeting clothes.
465
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:33,720
Yes.
466
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:38,200
Because some people tell me about, yes, everybody was dressed in white or something like that.
467
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,400
So it's just kind of unusual.
468
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,200
What do you make of that?
469
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:48,320
Well, agency is the master controlling law.
470
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,360
Everything points to agency.
471
00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:52,200
Even the atonement.
472
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:59,200
He used his agency to volunteer to be the Savior, and we use our agency to allow that
473
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,040
to work in our lives.
474
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:06,280
And so agency is the master control of all laws.
475
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,040
Everything we do.
476
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,560
And so that agency cannot be thwarted.
477
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:18,400
And so you will see people dressed the way that works for you.
478
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:24,800
Now I know that the people in the spirit world don't have to be wearing robes like they
479
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,400
did in the Bible.
480
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:31,240
If Christ would have been born in our day, he would have been wearing a suit, you know,
481
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,120
or maybe a sport jacket.
482
00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:35,760
Who knows, you know?
483
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:41,480
He would be wearing our kind of clothes and roaming around teaching people.
484
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,320
He wouldn't necessarily be in a suit the whole time, but could be.
485
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,560
But he'd be wearing clothes like we wear now.
486
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:53,160
And so he wore robes because that was the style of the day.
487
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:58,040
And that's how people want to see him or think that he needs to be dressed.
488
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:03,240
When they see things, they'll see him so they can understand what they're seeing.
489
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:10,080
Now I had foreknowledge, like I told you, that people in the spirit world don't all
490
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,040
dress in robes.
491
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:17,200
And so it was no big deal to me to have them wearing normal clothes.
492
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:22,000
My mother had a gift to see spirits.
493
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,680
I myself had a gift, but not as extensive as my mother's.
494
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:32,480
And so to see people in the spirit world, sell them, do you see them wearing robes?
495
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,280
At least in my experience, in my mother's experience.
496
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:41,800
And so people are going to wear what doesn't mess up the person's agency and helps them
497
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,360
understand who they're seeing.
498
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,960
Even there's one example with my mother.
499
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:53,520
She had an uncle who was, well, I guess he was a nephew.
500
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,560
It was his nephew.
501
00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:00,520
And he had been injured in a wagon accident.
502
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,800
And so he had a bad leg and he had to drag it.
503
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:04,800
It didn't work.
504
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,320
So he clumped, dragged, clumped, dragged, you know, kind of like, anyway.
505
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:14,680
And so he comes back to see her and he's clumping, dragging his leg.
506
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,640
And she's asked him, she says, his name was Wilford.
507
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,400
And she says, Wilford, why are you walking like that?
508
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,600
Because you don't have those problems in the spirit world.
509
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:29,240
He goes, oh, I'm doing this so you'd know who I was.
510
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,920
Now you recognize who I am because this is how you know me.
511
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,920
And so that's part of it.
512
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:42,840
And so to see people dressed in clothes that are normal and even priced was not wearing
513
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,160
a robe.
514
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,480
He was wearing a white suit.
515
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:47,920
That didn't bother me at all.
516
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,240
I didn't even think twice about it.
517
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:52,640
Thank you for that explanation.
518
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,800
A couple other quick things before we get back to where you were.
519
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,640
You mentioned something about accepting the Savior.
520
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,040
Did you learn how we do that?
521
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,600
Is there a simple answer to that?
522
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,600
Well, you can read it all through the New Testament.
523
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:16,280
And then in Corinthians it says that no man can say Jesus is the Lord but by the Holy
524
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:17,280
Ghost.
525
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:21,760
In other words, you have to accept Christ as your Savior.
526
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:23,840
Open your heart to Him.
527
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:29,480
Open your heart to hear a spiritual communication rather than the stuff we normally hear around
528
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:30,480
here.
529
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:35,520
And the Holy Ghost then will speak to your mind and your heart, mostly your heart.
530
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,760
And tell you that this is who He is.
531
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:39,760
It verifies truth.
532
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:45,760
Because, you know, when Christ was leaving his apostles, he says that the Father would
533
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:50,080
send the Holy Ghost in His name and He will teach you all things and He will bring to
534
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,160
your remembrance whatsoever I've said unto you.
535
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:58,560
Which those two things are very important in the writing of the New Testament itself
536
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,400
and in the writing of my book.
537
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,760
So He teaches you truth.
538
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,240
And He is the testifier.
539
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:12,320
He testifies of the living God and the living Christ and that Jesus of Nazareth is the Son
540
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:13,320
of God.
541
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,680
And that's the only way you know it.
542
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,040
Mortal communication is not strong enough.
543
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,360
It is not complete enough.
544
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,160
That's how you know who it is.
545
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:30,240
And so when I had already known that before all this happened and everything I saw, I
546
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:35,000
already knew was real, I already knew was true.
547
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,240
I think if I hadn't known it, I wouldn't have seen it.
548
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,120
But because I already knew about a pre-mortal, I already knew about Him making the earth,
549
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,480
I already knew Jehovah and Jesus were the same person, I already knew the Holy Ghost
550
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:48,880
had to bear witness to you.
551
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,880
I saw, I knew a lot of things already.
552
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,400
And all this did is give me more detail and just verify stronger.
553
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,520
Well, I'm really not stronger.
554
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,840
It's more detail because my testimony didn't get stronger.
555
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:05,400
I already knew Christ was Christ and I don't know Him anymore.
556
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,760
I just got to know Him more personal.
557
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,440
I got to know more details.
558
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:16,000
So that's part of the reason why it came to me that way because I was not a novice in
559
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:17,760
spiritual things.
560
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:23,520
And the other thing, I'm trying to in my own mind envision everything that you were experiencing
561
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:24,520
there.
562
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:29,800
I'm trying to make like a movie out of it, and you mentioned that you were able to look
563
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,200
into Jesus' eyes.
564
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:33,680
He was a little taller than you.
565
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,680
He was around six, two, you thought.
566
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,760
Is there anything else you can explain about what He looked like?
567
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:46,680
Oh, I can tell you some things, but there are some things I'm not allowed to tell you.
568
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:52,400
Perhaps in one idea of the last question asked me, he says, you should have a broken heart
569
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,320
and a contrite spirit.
570
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,800
In other words, you have to be humble and receptive to the Lord.
571
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:05,080
When you first see Him and know that's who it is, it was interesting that when I saw
572
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:11,080
Him before I knew who it was, I thought, well, just a guy standing there, you know, and it
573
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:16,920
didn't, I didn't get too excited about it except for, okay, my escort's here.
574
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,960
Then when I was told who it was, it suddenly all changed.
575
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,160
And then you see Him different.
576
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:29,000
And then it's a little bit like maybe like Mary and the tomb, because He comes to her
577
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:30,800
and He says, you know, what's your problem?
578
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,240
Why are you crying?
579
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,000
And she goes, well, they took Him away.
580
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,480
Just tell me where He is.
581
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:41,040
And she didn't recognize Him, though she was extremely familiar with Him.
582
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:47,200
But then He made one word statement and He said, Mary.
583
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,120
But now here's the difference.
584
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:55,640
When He said Mary, He said it in a way that she would recognize His demeanor, His voice,
585
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,120
Him as a person.
586
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:04,040
When He said the other things, He was saying it more of a maybe like the resurrected Lord.
587
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,360
So she didn't recognize it.
588
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,640
When I was looking at Him, He was just normal.
589
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:17,480
But then when I was told who He is, now I see Him as the Lord in a way I recognize through
590
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,040
the whisperings of the Holy Ghost.
591
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:24,000
And so then it became a whole new world.
592
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,520
I was looking in His eyes and nothing else mattered.
593
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:33,600
How tall He was or what He was wearing, what His face looked like, nothing mattered.
594
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,200
All that mattered was His eyes.
595
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:43,880
And they are just so expansive and eternal and loving and accepting.
596
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:53,040
It's incredible to look into His eyes because I got to see Him through His entire life and
597
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,960
as immortal for quite a long time, immortal, I should say, mortal and immortal.
598
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:03,040
I got to know what He looked like in a different way than when you normally see Him for a short
599
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:04,040
time.
600
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:10,000
If you see Him for a short time, nothing else seems to make any difference but His eyes
601
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,120
and the spirit around Him and the love you feel from Him.
602
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,880
But when I got to have a conversation with Him and have Him show me different things,
603
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:24,120
I got to see things beyond just His life that you read in the scriptures.
604
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:28,480
And when you get this kind of a time with Him, it's like being with your friend.
605
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,800
You have time to have a conversation.
606
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:39,240
You may not talk about what you had for breakfast, but you have a normal kind of a conversation
607
00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:42,520
dealing with the atmosphere that you're in.
608
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:47,280
And so I got to know what He looks like and I'm not allowed to tell anyone specifically
609
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:48,280
what He looks like.
610
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,200
Well, thank you for filling in those blanks.
611
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:57,640
Before I got us off on a tangent, you were talking about you got to see His birth.
612
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,200
You got to see Him as a youth growing up.
613
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,600
Go ahead and pick it back up there.
614
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,040
Sorry to interrupt, but this interview is long enough.
615
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,360
We need to split it into two episodes.
616
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,760
We're not even halfway through and it just gets better.
617
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,120
Part two will be released later this week.
618
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:20,480
And to be notified as soon as it's live, be sure to follow or subscribe to this podcast.
619
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,600
In the meantime, please share it with a friend.
620
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:39,720
Until then, I wish you everything good that you're looking for in this life and the next.
